|
Cold start needs two batteries?
|
| Fishmore |
Posted on 01/17/10 - 1:25 PM
|
Member
Personal Page
Posts: 270
Comments:
0
Joined: 11/20/07
|
I have a 1993 Mercury 75 hp 2-stroke. When ice cold most times but not always I need to have my battery switch in the all position to get it to kick over fast enough to start. After warm up I can shut it down and move the switch back to one battery and for the rest of the day it starts right up no issues. My batteries are in the console so it is about a 12-14 foot run and both batteries are group 24 combo deep cycle/starting battery. I have debating myself about the cause. I am assuming that the cold start has a much higher amperage draw than the warm start so my ideas are.
1. Needs a larger diameter battery cable to reduce cable voltage loss.
2. Needs a strict starting battery with higher cold cranking amps.
I am leaning towards solution 2 but I am open to other ideas.
|
| |
|
|
| DWinter |
Posted on 01/17/10 - 1:41 PM
|
Member
Personal Page
Posts: 252
Comments:
0
Joined: 01/02/10
|
If it's taking 2 Batteries to start that engine, there is a problem somewhere. You mention guage of the wire running to the engine from the batteries.If this is too small, you will feel the wiring get warm when you try to start the engine due to pulling too much current thru a small conductor. I doubt this is your problem because you would have had this problem from the start. More likely either the battery is old and not holding a charge or your starter is failing. Load test the batteries and take the starter off and have it tested. It's more likely that one of these issues is your problem and I'm leaning towards battery if it stsrts fine after running. A short run puts a charge on the batteries quickly.
Edited by DWinter on 01/17/10 - 1:43 PM
Duane G Winter
1984 BW Sport 15 Center Console |
| |
|
|
| JohnnyCW |
Posted on 01/17/10 - 3:34 PM
|
Member
Posts: 684
Comments:
0
Joined: 08/16/09
|
Not sure I'm completely understanding the issue...
Is this a cold weather related problem or just when the engine hasn't be run but the weather is relatively warm? Batteries have to work much harder as ambient temperatures drop.
2 AWG should be the minimum for your battery cables, especially given your long cable run. Smaller gauge cable is definitely an issue and and long before a cable ever gets warm to the touch.
Don't use wing nuts on the battery terminals and make sure all the terminals are clean.
If the problem has become common recently when not an issue previously, your batteries may be near the end of their useful life.
The last feww outings I too have found it necessary to enable both batteries to start my motor when previously one battery was adequate. But my batteries are about four years old and I know are in need of replacement.
|
| |
|
|
| Phil T |
Posted on 01/17/10 - 4:11 PM
|
Administrator
Personal Page
Personal Album
Project Albums
Posts: 7043
Comments:
6
Joined: 03/26/05
|
I agree with Duane and Johnny.
Double check the connectors at the battery posts and the engine to ensure all are clean and have tight connections. Slight amounts of corrosion will impede the current.
What gauge of wire is being used. I used 2 gauge (not 2/0) battery cable from my Montauk console battery to the engine. Note the higher the number, the smaller the wire.
|
| |
|
|
| Joe Kriz |
Posted on 01/17/10 - 4:25 PM
|
Site Owner
Personal Page
Personal Album
Photo Albums
Project Albums
Posts: 11447
Comments:
452
Joined: 03/18/05
|
Can you clarify a few things about the battery.
What brand?
How old?
What size? Group 24 or 27 ?
What type? Starting, Deep Cycle, Combo?
Most small boats only need a starting battery as opposed to a Deep Cycle.
I used to use a combo, Starting and Deep Cycle, but they didn't last that long nor did they give me as much starting amps as just a starting battery.
I switched to a Starting Battery and it lasts longer and has better cranking amps.
If you choose to have a second battery, then that one could be a deep cycle.
|
| |
|
|
| Fishmore |
Posted on 01/17/10 - 6:10 PM
|
Member
Personal Page
Posts: 270
Comments:
0
Joined: 11/20/07
|
Joe,
What brand? West Marine (Sea Volt)
How old? 18 months
What size? Group 24 or 27 ? Group 24
What type? Starting, Deep Cycle, Combo? Combo
Other questions: size 2 cable.
Problem usually exists if temperature is below 60 degrees or boat has sat for a couple of weeks.
I do run an onboard battery charger and if I just took the boat off the charger prior to going to the launch ramp then I am less likely to have to move the switch to the all position for startup. If I forget to plug in the charger than I am more likely to require the second battery for initial start. After the initial start though I never have a problem starting it right up off one battery.
In order to answer these questions I had to look at the specs online and see that the battery I have produces 685 MCA and their starting batteries in the same size produce 805 MCA or I can stay still in the Group 24 size and get one with 1000 MCA. So maybe switching to a starting battery will solve my problem. I wonder if I can get some money back in order to trade up? I will have to ask.
|
| |
|
|
| Bake |
Posted on 01/17/10 - 6:22 PM
|
Member
Personal Page
Project Albums
Posts: 902
Comments:
8
Joined: 01/30/06
|
all that being said I have a 1996 100hp mercury. I do not have to use two batteries, but it always seems to drag when I first hit it. once it spins once it seem to spin much more freely. I have tried mine on a couple of new batteries with the same result.
|
| |
|
|
| JohnnyCW |
Posted on 01/17/10 - 7:20 PM
|
Member
Posts: 684
Comments:
0
Joined: 08/16/09
|
Deep cycle and even combo batteries don't make for good starting batteries in some applications. I'll bet even in just 18 months, your batteries have declined enough to cause the problem.
Batteries begin to weaken the first day you start using them. Many factors can accelerate their loss of capacity.
If you don't already have the information, you may want to research the minimum battery requirements for your motor. Mine is a minimum of 675 CCA. If I buy a battery that just meets the minimum requirement, I don't leave a lot of overhead to account for age and wear and tear and will likely have to replace the battery sooner than if I started out with a greater capacity battery.
|
| |
|
|
| Fishmore |
Posted on 01/17/10 - 9:43 PM
|
Member
Personal Page
Posts: 270
Comments:
0
Joined: 11/20/07
|
The service manual for my motor (1993 Mercury 75 HP) lists starter draw needing 120 amps and it recommends a battery with a minimum reserve rating of 100 minutes and a CCA of 350 amps.
Full specs for my battery is 65ah , 685 MCA and 120 reserve minutes.
I looked up the formula to convert MCA to CCA and it works out as 685 MCA x 0.77 = 527.45 CCA
So my battery has 20 extra reserve minutes and 177.45 more CCA than is required.
Seems like I should be okay but, I am not. I guess my best bet is still to replace the combo battery with a starting battery and see if that solves the problem.
|
| |
|
|
| JohnnyCW |
Posted on 01/18/10 - 8:37 AM
|
Member
Posts: 684
Comments:
0
Joined: 08/16/09
|
Fishmore wrote:So my battery has 20 extra reserve minutes and 177.45 more CCA than is required.
Seems like I should be okay but, I am not.
Your battery would be okay in new condition. Sounds like it was from what I can gather from the information you've posted. Either there is some other issue such as a poor connection or you batteries have just suffered from age.
You posted that you use an on-board charger. Have you always had the charger and always topped the batteries off after every use?
The single most common mistake I've seen is storing batteries after use in a depleted state of charge. Then the boat owner hooks up a charger the night before a planned outing. Storing a battery in a depleted state of charge is one quick way to significantly shorten the usable life of a lead acid battery.
Unfortunately even with diligent care, there are just a lot of crappy batteries out there. EverStart = NeverStart, and that particular battery is sold under a variety of brand names along with a few other poor quality store brand batteries. I have no personal experience with West Marine's batteries.
Put a volt meter on the battery and have somebody monitor the battery voltage while you start the engine. If the voltage drops below 12v at all, its definitely time for new batteries.
Now that I've moved my batteries to my center console where they are less accessible, I've decided my next batteries will be Odyssey 34M-PC1500's. At a little over $500 for the pair, they're not inexpensive but they are reliable, durable, and come with a real warranty. I've used Odyssey batteries in a variety of electric vehicle projects and they always exceed my expectations. I wont ever have to check the electrolyte level, they wont gas or spill, and I expect an honest 4-5 years minimum of reliable service. Not everyone's cup of tea though, I understand. $500 is steep for a pair of battereis.
|
| |
|
|
| HarleyFXDL |
Posted on 01/18/10 - 12:47 PM
|
Member
Personal Page
Project Albums
Posts: 917
Comments:
30
Joined: 07/24/07
|
I have had excellent service from sears and Delco batteries. The only two makers that exceeded the time frame set for the batteries.
Kevin
1988 11' Super Sport, 1987 Johnson 15hp.
If you think education is expensive, try ignorance
"Vegetarian - old Indian word for bad fisherman." |
| |
|
|
| rwhitejr |
Posted on 02/20/10 - 4:53 AM
|
Member
Posts: 35
Comments:
0
Joined: 08/16/07
|
I had the same problem with my 88hp Evinrude once, drove me nuts. Try checking the voltage at your starter when cranking, if you have good voltage then it is likely your starter is going like mine was. I had my starter rebuilt for $100 and started with one battery great.
|
| |
|
|
| theo |
Posted on 02/20/10 - 9:59 AM
|
Member
Personal Page
Posts: 252
Comments:
0
Joined: 08/26/08
|
I know it's not as common on boats as on cars and trucks, but you should check for parasitic drain. It's possible you're losing some charge that way. All you need is an ammeter that reads milliamps.
Either of your batteries should turn that motor over easily. If they're only a year and a half old, and they pass a load test, and they aren't discharging over the period of two weeks, and you've cleaned the connections, then I would test the starter, or have it tested.
Ted
1985 15' CC, 1994 60 hp Merc (Wednesday built), 5" jack plate |
| |
|
|
| MW |
Posted on 02/21/10 - 4:02 AM
|
Member
Personal Page
Posts: 1827
Comments:
10
Joined: 01/08/06
|
All Great advice, the only thing I can add is that I agree on using a starting battery, and keeping the terminals tight clean and lubed with "Dielectric grease", it's pobably due to the age of your battery (I'm "guessing" here since we can't bench test it, and through my own personal battery failure "fun" experiances). I always go to the dealer to buy my battery, they will always sell you a "High Quality" battery because, they don't want unhappy customers returning angry lugging a heavy battery. It's easier and less frustrating than the bargain "ha-ha" marine store. A battery is about as exciting to buy as a trailer part, it add's no performance, or beauty to your boat but, "you ain't goin no-where without it" !
Matt |
| |
|
|
| Fishmore |
Posted on 02/21/10 - 10:44 AM
|
Member
Personal Page
Posts: 270
Comments:
0
Joined: 11/20/07
|
Thank you for all the suggestions. I did two more projects while thinking about this. I am still debating. I guess it will be best to do a little troubleshooting before doing the remove replace thing. The starter situation is very plausible as I remember having that problem on a Dodge car I had once but with the Dodge it would never start unless I used two batteries all the time. With this one it is only the initial start and after that it starts fine off the one battery.
|
| |
|
|
| theo |
Posted on 02/22/10 - 6:03 PM
|
Member
Personal Page
Posts: 252
Comments:
0
Joined: 08/26/08
|
If you threw a brand new battery in there I'll bet it will start fine when cold, at least for a few months or until next winter. But then what?
As you know, a warmed up engine usually starts quite a bit easier than a cold engine. It's already lubricated, moving parts have expanded into their optimal clearances, the fuel system is primed and full, etc.
Once you've eliminated everything these guys have suggested and if you still have a problem, you might look into whether your fuel delivery system is OK. If fuel isn't available right away because you have a leaky primer bulb, or a pinhole in a hose, or a clogged filter, you could get the same or similar symptoms.
Good luck. Be patient!
Ted
1985 15' CC, 1994 60 hp Merc (Wednesday built), 5" jack plate |
| |
|
|
| Fishmore |
Posted on 05/16/10 - 5:57 PM
|
Member
Personal Page
Posts: 270
Comments:
0
Joined: 11/20/07
|
Okay, I finally got back to this project over the weekend. I replaced the battery cables with new size 4 battery cables and new cable ends. First try with a cold engine and the new cables using just the one battery and it fires right up. Glad I did not replace the battery first.
|
| |
|
|
| JohnnyCW |
Posted on 05/16/10 - 6:28 PM
|
Member
Posts: 684
Comments:
0
Joined: 08/16/09
|
You went from 2 AWG to 4 AWG and it works better?
|
| |
|
|
| CES |
Posted on 05/16/10 - 7:22 PM
|
Member
Personal Page
Photo Albums
Project Albums
Posts: 2681
Comments:
7
Joined: 04/27/07
|
Doesn't make sense to me either unless his old cables were damaged internally.
Cliff
1966 13' Sport with a 1993 40hp Yamaha 2 Smoker |
| |
|
|
| Fishmore |
Posted on 05/16/10 - 7:23 PM
|
Member
Personal Page
Posts: 270
Comments:
0
Joined: 11/20/07
|
Sorry looks like I made a mistake back towards the beginning of the post. The original cable was a size 4 also. In addition that original cable had a splice in it that was hidden in the tunnel. There was corrosion on the cable in the area of the splice. I now have new cable end to end with no splices. But same size 4 cable. Good catch! Actually I thought about going to size 2 on the replacement but I did some work for a guy who had a spool of size 4 cable and he offered it to me for free. I just have to give him back what I did not use. So I figured I could stick with the size 4 at that price.
Edited by Fishmore on 05/16/10 - 7:29 PM |
| |
|
