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BACKGROUND INORMTION
Ok. So I just bought this 1975 17' montauk. Its got a 100hp 1979 evinrude 100, all new wiring on the engine bc I guess mice got in it a couple years back. ANYWAY. The motor started before I bought it, didnt run all that smoothly, but it ran for about 5 minutes. Initially i could rev it up but after a few times whenever I gave it gas it died. SO, I figured change plugs, hoses, fuel pump, filter etc, should be good to go. And my friend used to work on mercury outboards, and has alot of experience with motors in general so wasnt too worried about getting everything running smoothly. So I bought it, brought it home, and the thing won't start. SO... I brought it to my friends house today and this is what we found:
PROBLEM
The spark plugs are not getting any spark, even though there is power to all of them right up to the coils.
So we went through the wiring up in the center console. It took a while as it was a bit of a rat's nest, and we had to figure out what was going on, but afer a while we got to thinking it was the ignition switch. SO we bypassed the switch by putting the red (hotwire), and purple (switched power) together, and turning it over by touching the yellow wire (ignition), on the pair. We then worked our way back to the motor, wiring harness, up to the top part that spins when you turn it over and generates electricity (excuse my ignorance of the terminology), the thing that the starter spins lol, anyway, had power going into and out of that, and right up to the wires that go into the coils and into the two things that start with an R, forget the name, theres one on each side of the motor, they're cyllindrical in shape. ANYWAY, so my friend is puzzled because we have power EVERYWHERE, accept on the spark plug wires, and thus the plugs are not firing.
Any ideas what to check?
My friend is hesitant about trying replacing the coils because it seems odd that they would all go at the same time. Remember I had the motor running a week ago, and we bypassed the ignition switch.. The red wire in the motor has power all the time, and the purple is switched, and the yellow has power when the motor is turning over AS IT IS SUPPOSED TO BE. So yea, my friend and I are stumped at the moment, and I'm dying to fix this baby up and get her in the water.
Thank you, I noticed it said to disconnect the kill wire(s) from the ignition sitch, on almost all of the troubleshoting tips for all cylinders not firing. I'll have to try this tomorrow. GOD it would be wonderful if this is the issue.
Alright so I bypassed all the wiring in the boat by attaching an external ignition switch straitght from the battery to the motor, still getting no spark. I've got power all over the motor right up through the magneedo and the rectifier... Yet again still no spark. At this point the only thing I can imagine is its the 2 power packs, all 4 ignition coils, or the charging coil, however I believe the charging coil would only cause the battery to die, and not prevent spark. And as much as I'm leaning towards the power packs, it seems odd that they would both fail at the same time. Am I correct for having this assumption? Same goes for all 4 ignition coils. Is there anything that would cause all 4 of them to go at the same time? (Remember, I had the motor running 3 weeks ago...)
I went through the wiring today following this manual that I have for the motor, testing polarity and continuity etc etc with an ohm meter, of the magneedo, stator, charging coil*, another coil i believe thats part of the magneedo,and the rectfier. All except the charging coil checked out appropriately.
Anyone have any ideas as far as what my next course of action should be? I'm really trying to avoid taking it to a dealer or profesional mechanic if possible, but im almost at the poin that I may have to as a last resort.
I have 2 power packs. DOes it make sense that both of them would go at the same time? The engine did run a little rough when i ran it, could one of them have been bad, and then the other one went for whatever reason? Could the motor still run with only one pack working? I'm just hesitant bc I dont think I can return the parts if thats not the issue. Anyone know how to test the power packs?
Can you elaborate a little on how you bypassed the wiring harness and attached the ignition switch directly to the motor?
The first thing I'd check is the black/yellow wire to each power pack. When you turn the ignition off, this wire is grounded and is responsible for killing the engine. If there's a short to ground anywhere along the line in this wire, you won't get any spark regardless of the key position. You can do a simple resistance check to the engine block to see if this is the case (depending on how you have it wired now).
Edited by Derwd24 on 04/30/09 - 11:39 PM
Dave - 1983 Outrage 22
Well I actually wasn't there when the wiring was bypassed, this was my friends doing when the boat was at his house the other day. He used to work as a merc mechanic, and was able to obtain this harness from his old boss. As he explained it to me, Its an ignition switch, that hooks up directly into the harness plug that's in the motor, like where the wires first come into the motor, there's a big red plug with several prongs. If you want I'll take a look at the manual and find the exact name for it. But anyway.
Now its hooked up normally with the ignition mounted in the center console, and the wires that run under the floor. I spoke with a mechanic today who recommended that I start by getting a new stator, due to the fact that the charge coil failed the test. He said this may be the root of the spark problem, but even if its not, I need to replace it anyway because of the charge coil.
I'll try testing those wires you recommended tomorrow... How do I do a resistance test to the engine block? Like what am I looking for if there is a short to ground vs if there is not? And that's using an ohm meter right? Or a volt meter? My meter has both... Not sure if that's common or not.
Looked on the evinrude website, that external ignition harness thing plugged directly into the motor cable assy (#15 on the list at the link here: http://shop2.evinrude.com/ext/index.aspx?s1=c6f5cbd302f6c755bfc39bac219c585c
If you trace the black/yellow wire from power packs and disconnect it/them if able then crank, what happens? Anything can happen at any time for any reason and it does not have to make sense, when applied to boats. When you trouble shoot you will be happier if you got at it with the perspective that you are finding out what you don't have to repleace!
I'd recommend disconnecting the large red connector that goes out to the controls first (as well as the positive battery cable at the battery to remove power while you test). Then disconnect both of the 4 wire connectors that go to each power pack (looks like there are 3 connectors to each pack, 2 of the 2 wire and 1 of the 4 wire).
Now, with those disconnected, if you look into the harness side connector and rotate it until the flat part is down, I believe the pin for the black/yellow wire will be in the lower right. Set your meter to the ohms setting and touch the probes together, the display should go to zero. Now take one meter probe and connect it to that pin I mentioned above on the port side power pack connector on the main harness and one probe to the starbd. side, the display should also read zero as they're supposed to be connected together inside the harness (both packs get grounded when the key is switched off). Now remove one lead and touch it to the negative battery cable ground point on the block. If you see the meter go to zero, you have a short in the harness to ground. If it doesn't, reconnect the large main red connector and toggle the key from on to off, you should see the meter change accordingly. This will verify that the ground circuit is working and OK and the problem lies elsewhere.
ok, so I unhooked the main harness, put the two testers to the black/yellow wire holes in the harnesses that go to the power packs, and the meter went to zero like you said. Then i hooked the main harness up again, took out one tester and put it to the ground on the block, it went to zero as well, however at this point the key was in the off position, so I went and turned it to on, and the meter goes all the way to the other side away from zero, turn it to off it goes back to zero.
So as far as I understand there is no short to the ground. Would you agree that I should replace the stator and see where I'm at? Or are there any other tests I can do now to rule out other things? (Note: I already tested the rectifier, sensor coil resistance, short to sensor coil, charge coil resistance and charge coil test for a short, charge coil output (which failed)...
What was the resistance of your charge and sensor coils? Also, take a very close look at where the sensor and charge coil wires exit the timer base as this can be a high stress point due to the base movement back and forth over the years.
So i just did a power pack output test, following the directions in this manual I have. It says to set the meter to NEGATIVE and 500. then you disconnect the 2wire harness tht goes from the power pack to the ignition coils, and hookup a jumper wire between the A terminals on the male and female part of the harness, essentially hooking together one of the two wires. Then you put the positive meter lead into the B terminal coming off the power pack, and put the neg meter lead to ground. THen crank the motor over, and it should read 170 or higher. you repeat this test jumping B terminals together and testing A. In each case the meter should read 170 or more. It doesnt say ohms or volts or any unit after the 170, I'm guessing its volts, but anyway, My meter doesnt have a negtive switch, so i reciprocated positive and neative so the positive lead was going to round and the negative was going to the test terminal. I did this because upon trying it the first time without doing that the needle went in the opposite direction. Even so however, after flipping them, the meter did not read anywhere near any 170, be it ohms or volts, but did have a little response. The Starboard power pack on the other hand does not move at all when I crank the motor over.
So basically I am wondering am I performing the test wrong, does my meter not have the capability of performing the test, or do I need to go ahead and replace both power packs before worrying about the stator, as the power packs are considerably less expensive.
Checking resistances is one thing, checking voltage output is another and you can damage more components if your meter is on the wrong setting. Sent you a PM.
Well I hope and pray I didnt do any damage.
So new problem, lol, they just keep on coming..: My power tilt/trim has been finicky since I got it. The boat is a little too far back on the trailor due to the location of the crank, so it makes it so if you climb in the back the boat will tip up in the air, so I'd been puting the motor down and resting the skeg on a couple 2x4s, in order to support the boat when walking around in the stern. But then when I went to tilt it back up it wouldnt work, so id have to pull the 2x4's out from under the skeg, trim it down a little briefly before switching back to up, in which case usually after a few tries it would go up again, and then work fine up down up down. But whenever It gets a load on it so to speak, it has this issue.
Then today I had the same issue, however it wouldnt come back up, and I ended up getting to the bottom of the trim range, so now it will only struggle to go down more, like i hear the motor running, and it does nothing when I push the switch up.
My friend said its probably the switch..... But why the difference between when it gets a load on it vs not? ANd now its stuck all the way down and I cant tow it bc the hitch is on the bumper of the truck...
Thanks for reading my long drawn out rants everyone!
If you are hearing the motor run, then it shouldn't be the switch and it probably needs fluid. Also, look of the side of the mounting bracket on the outside of the boat and you should see a hole with a screw recessed in it. This is a sort of release valce that will let you manually lower the motor. It is possible that it needs tightening.
ok that sounds good, I'll do that today. The only thing is I only hear the motor when trying to tilt down, nothing when I try to go up. would this still rule out the switch?
So I loosened that screw, relieving the pressure, pushed the motor up a little, tightened it (still trimmed back down from gravity, but not all the way, so i could flip the switch down for a second or 2 then flipped the switch immediately to up, and it went up. Brought it back down to the top of the trim range, put wood under the skeg, trimmed it down JUST to the piece of wood (enough to support the motor), went to go up and nothing again. Repeated it again (taking wood out from under the skeg, trim down/up etc), and managed to get it up again. So as long as i have it hanging on the transom it continues to work up and down....
Oh and where do I add fluid, what kind of fluid, and how to tell when its full?
!
