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Loose speed with low engine transom mount?
acordts	#1  Posted on 04/10/09 - 6:32 PM
Member Project Albums Posts: 57 Comments: 4 Joined: 11/21/08	I completed my Whaler 190 bare hull project, powering it with a 115 E-Tec. Per the request of A&J Marine, I trailered the rig back to them so they could do the initial engine start to validate the warranty. To my chagrin, they unbolted the engine and lowered it a notch. I had deliberately mounted it one notch high, and actually set up the engine so I could go higher one notch still! I complained to the shop that they stole 2 mph from me on the top end; furthermore, I also groused that I will probably more thoroughly destroy my lower unit on the next underwater obstruction I encounter with the deeper draft. The shop said they were concerned about turns which might make me spin out. I countered that I am not a ski boat; this boat goes fishing; so, 99% of the time, I am going straight. My question is to anyone who has experience with jackplate rigs...what do you stand to gain, or lose, by raising that engine at planing speeds? Thank you. Edited by Tom W Clark on 04/11/09 - 6:38 AM
Binkie	#2  Posted on 04/10/09 - 7:56 PM
Member Personal Page Posts: 2012 Comments: 0 Joined: 12/19/05	You were on the right track, but I can only say the dealer is an idiot. Being that they are idiots, and also uninformed, I would run the motor the way they set it up, for now, because if you have any problems with the motor, they will undoubtedly blame it on your tampering with the motor height. You can reset the motor at a later date, and they you can document the difference in performance, Rich
Phil T	#3  Posted on 04/11/09 - 5:01 AM
Administrator Personal Page Personal Album Project Albums Posts: 7043 Comments: 6 Joined: 03/26/05	Can you clarify To my chagrin, they unbolted the engine and lowered it a notch. I had deliberately mounted it one notch high One notch high compared to what? Where you 2 holes up, then went to 3? Let's just be clear on the details before slinging invectives. Edited by Phil T on 04/11/09 - 5:01 AM 1992 Outrage 17 I 2019 E-TEC 90, Viper 17 2+ 2018 Load Rite Elite 18280096VT
acordts	#4  Posted on 04/11/09 - 6:17 AM
Member Project Albums Posts: 57 Comments: 4 Joined: 11/21/08	AJ Inc. are definitely not idiots, and that is not my Thread that said that. But we do have a one notch difference of opinion at the moment, and I wonder still what the potential tradeoffs are. I agree at this moment, I will defer to their extensive small boat experience. Besides, I had a blast tweaking a number of other ABYC "rules" on my Bare Hull boat project over the past winter.
Tom W Clark	#5  Posted on 04/11/09 - 6:37 AM
Member Personal Page Posts: 4280 Comments: 7 Joined: 09/30/05	I do not understand the basis of either motor position. You have not run the boat so you do not know if your motor height will work. They have not run the boat so they do not know if the motor height will work. The motor can go as high as the propeller and cooling system will allow. The former is the controlling factor on Whalers. I find the idea that a high motor position will allow the boat to "spin out" juts bizarre and utter nonsense. The only way to find the ideal motor mounting height is to test it. To answer your question, a mow motor mounting height will slow the boat, add fuel consumption, reduce the hole shot, potentially induce porpoising and make the steering effort heavier.
acordts	#6  Posted on 04/11/09 - 4:53 PM
Member Project Albums Posts: 57 Comments: 4 Joined: 11/21/08	TWC: I understand that the basis of the position of the motor height on my instillation is relative. Now, relatively thinking, I would prefer to err on the side of a higher engine mount than the lower. Relatively thinking, I guess, the boatyard techs had a different relative starting point. Your shopping list about the relative disadvantages of a lower engine mount than a higher one seems to corroborate my thinking here. The boatyard did launch and water test the boat and they are entirely pleased with my setup in general, and their empiric modification prior to water testing-- lowering my engine one set of mounting holes. No, I wasn't with them. And no, I haven't run the rig myself yet. My question remains that...maybe they would have been happier (meaning faster top end, lighter steering, better hole shot etc. etc.) if the engine were raised higher. Edited by acordts on 04/12/09 - 9:23 AM
Tom W Clark	#7  Posted on 04/11/09 - 5:08 PM
Member Personal Page Posts: 4280 Comments: 7 Joined: 09/30/05	Yeah, I wonder that too. Raise the motor (or have them raise it) and go run the boat and see how it does.
Joe Kriz	#8  Posted on 04/11/09 - 5:25 PM
Site Owner Personal Page Personal Album Photo Albums Project Albums Posts: 11447 Comments: 452 Joined: 03/18/05	Where is it mounted now? There are 4 bolt holes I believe. Which hole is the bolt in from the top? 1 2 3 4 Just for reference, if the bolt is in hole number 1, then the engine is mounted all the way down. Here is a 2009 RPM Quick Reference Chart. http://forums.etecownersgroup.com/too...id=3414011 Your 115 E-Tec should run optimally at 5600 to 5700 RPM Edited by Joe Kriz on 04/11/09 - 5:42 PM
Binkie	#9  Posted on 04/11/09 - 8:09 PM
Member Personal Page Posts: 2012 Comments: 0 Joined: 12/19/05	Tom Clark`s comment with which i agree with. I find the idea that a high motor position will allow the boat to "spin out" juts bizarre and utter nonsense. That is what I based my "idiot" comment on. Sometimes small raceboats do spin out, but it has nothing to do with motor height. Rich
dburr	#10  Posted on 04/13/09 - 8:48 AM
Member Personal Page Posts: 15 Comments: 0 Joined: 06/15/08	Any Naval Arc or will tell you that at planing speeds 75% of all drag comes from wheel, strut, and shafting of the underwater power generating appendages, been this way for the last 90 or so years. The further the lower unit sticks in the water the more drag it is going to create. Have less stuff hanging in the water and you will have less drag and be more efficient. 'Nuff said. Has anyone heard of a Whaler “spinning out”? I did not think that was possible with proper loading and operation.. Hole position is not as big a deal as how high is the BOTTOM of your cavitation plate from the chine at the stern and how does she run through the speed range? On my sport15 (70 Merc with DoelFin and 21” cupped wheel) I started out with the TOP of the plate even with the chine and did ok at 37kts WOT. Next season I moved the engine up so the BOTTOM of the plate was about +/- an inch above the bottom of the chine following the “go big or go home” principle. The boat went like a scared cat but would porpoise easily at speed (25+ kts) with ANY type of trim above level and ventilated easily as well, but got to 42kts WOT. I went down one hole (don’t remember the dimension that the plate ended up at) and now get 38kts WOT and more trim range and get a better over all feel, not the disaster at any moment that it was. All tests were done with just me and std inland safety gear with 6 gal of fuel. The extra 7kts was not worth the loss of control to me and I am NOT going to ballast the bow down as recommended by a local very reputable shop. The guy did not realize that if I put in 100# of ballast that meant that a 100# kid got left ashore. Nice.. I think that it was Joe K that sent me a link a while back, and I can not find it now #@$!, that had good detail on proper engine mounting height. That is a great place to start. Good luck and please post your findings! Regards, Dave
acordts	#11  Posted on 04/18/09 - 6:49 PM
Member Project Albums Posts: 57 Comments: 4 Joined: 11/21/08	Mr. dburr, and others: Thanks for your insight and discussions. Your post and others show me that I chose my words poorly; The A&J Boatyard was concerned about CAVITATION with my higher engine mount and not "spin out" which was the wording I used. Anyhow, they dropped my engine lower from the No. 2 hole position to the No.1 holes--all the way down. At this position, the motor cavitation plate is about even with the keel. I think, eventually, I should easily be able to go up at least 3/4" and one hole position, and still have this plate still under 2" of the keel level. Your post about a plus 5 mph difference at WOT with a small change in cavitation plate height seems worth pursuing, provided I do not "cavitate" in rougher water conditions. God knows, Cape Cod boating = rough water conditions. Thank You Sauerkraut
Derwd24	#12  Posted on 04/18/09 - 7:07 PM
Member Posts: 1607 Comments: 9 Joined: 05/09/07	SK, What are you running for a prop now? That will also have a lot to do with cavitation when mounted higher, and some hold better than others in heavier seas (on both sides of the Cape!) Dave - 1983 Outrage 22
Tom W Clark	#13  Posted on 04/19/09 - 8:41 AM
Member Personal Page Posts: 4280 Comments: 7 Joined: 09/30/05	The dealer has done you wrong. If the motor is all the way down, it is AT LEAST one hole too low. It is not CAVITATION that will occur if the motor is too high, but VENTILATION. If your dealer does not know the difference between the two phenomena, I would not trust their opinion on motor height.