|
Coast Guard HP and Persons Ratings
|
| kw |
Posted on 05/21/08 - 11:30 PM
|
Member
Posts: 10
Comments:
0
Joined: 05/14/08
|
I'm sure this topic has probably been beaten to death, but as a new member (and after searching the threads on this topic) I was hoping someone might be able to shed a little light...
When looking at the Coast Guard ratings on my 1997 11' BW Tender, it states max hp is 10, and max occupancy is 3 people or 560 lbs. When looking at the factory specs (per Continuouswave.com) the 11' Sport and Super Sport are rated for 20 hp and 4 persons (but still 560 lbs). I can't believe the tender is built different from the sport/super sport models, and was wondering if it had something to do with being easier to control with remote steering. Comments please...
|
| |
|
|
| Jeff |
Posted on 05/22/08 - 6:16 AM
|
Member
Posts: 1987
Comments:
34
Joined: 04/02/05
|
You are correct. The tender was rated as a tiller steer and the Sport and Super Sport where rated as remote steer.
1993 23' Walkaround Whaler Drive |
| |
|
|
| Tom W Clark |
Posted on 05/22/08 - 7:22 AM
|
Member
Personal Page
Posts: 4280
Comments:
7
Joined: 09/30/05
|
To add to what Jeff has said, it is normal that a boat controlled by tiller steering is rated for less horsepower than remote steering. The theory being that a tiller steered motor is harder to control.
In the case of Boston Whalers, they usually, but not always, rated a non-remote steering model at exactly half the rating of the remote steering model.
Edited by Tom W Clark on 05/22/08 - 7:23 AM |
| |
|
|
| kw |
Posted on 05/22/08 - 10:46 AM
|
Member
Posts: 10
Comments:
0
Joined: 05/14/08
|
Thanks for the clarification. As I'm looking to add a console, remote steering and controls, etc. the info is definitely helpful. The 11' is underpowered with the 10 hp, but increasing to 15 or 20 hp would make it fun to drive.
Additionally, I've read in the past that the Coast Guard rating for HP can be surpassed if done safely (i.e. making the tender a sport model). What about the person(s) rating? If a sport/super sport is rated for 4 persons, can a boat rated for 3 have 4 persons riding in it if it is still under the weight limit?
|
| |
|
|
| wrangler |
Posted on 05/22/08 - 4:41 PM
|
Member
Posts: 264
Comments:
0
Joined: 03/14/08
|
Boston Whaler as all Boat makers are required to go by the CFR Code of Federal Regulations. If you exceed the HP, heres what can happen.
The warranty is void. The insurance company now has an out and insurance is invalid.Why? because you are operating illegally, you are breaking the laws. The states and federal govt have made it illegal to overpower. Whaler tested this boat and the rest that whaler makes by the CFR. Whaler determined that the boat will be safe by the regs. Overpowering will get you a ticket and a voyage termination.
It can also get you and anyone that rides on the boat (family?) hurt. Do you want that??
Weight= go by the weight, not by the people number. The standard is 185 pounds per person.
The formula is length times width divided by fifteen. 11 feet times 6= 66 divided by 15 =about 4 people if they weight 185 or less. More weight=less people.
|
| |
|
|
| Tom W Clark |
Posted on 05/22/08 - 5:51 PM
|
Member
Personal Page
Posts: 4280
Comments:
7
Joined: 09/30/05
|
Wrangler -- you're wrong.
A boaters owner's insurance will NOT necessarily become invalid if the boat is overpowered. Many insurance companies insure overpowered boats. Sometimes you must pay an extra premium, sometimes not.
There is no federal law against overpowering, though a few states expressly prohibit it.
Your trip will NOT necessarily be stopped and terminated if you are overpowered. Indeed many overpowered boats are stopped for safety inspections with no notice or concern of the overpowered condition.
|
| |
|
|
| kamie |
Posted on 05/22/08 - 5:53 PM
|
Member
Personal Page
Project Albums
Posts: 2975
Comments:
3
Joined: 11/04/05
|
Wrangler;
Yes every boat builder is required to follow the formula in the CFR, but they can choose to assign a lower HP to their hulls than is called for by the HP formula in the regulations.
Yes, if you over power a hull, Whaler will void your warranty, but the hull warranty on kw's boat is expired since it's only a 10 year warranty.
No, your insurance company does not have an out, if you have told them what the rated HP of the hull is and what engine you have on there. If they wrote you the policy, they are obligated to honor it.
You are not breaking any federal laws by powering a boat over it's rated HP. Please supply a link that says you are? You may be violating state laws, and I believe that FL is one state that has such a law, but no federal laws that I know of. Please see the Coast Guard FAQ . If the Coast Guard boards your vessel and it is determined by the officer that the boat is overloaded, they can terminate the voyage. If you comply there is no fine.
Whaler has always made different models from the same hull, often with different capacities. In some cases such as the 13 standard vs 13 Sport, whaler would sell you the interior to covert and I guess there by be able to now power the boat with a 40HP. I don't know if that was the case for the 11 footer, but I don't see why if you convert the hull to remote steering it would not be safe to power with a 20HP
|
| |
|
|
| wrangler |
Posted on 05/23/08 - 7:53 AM
|
Member
Posts: 264
Comments:
0
Joined: 03/14/08
|
33CFR 183.51 Safe Powering- applies to monohull boats less than 20 ft.
33CFR 183.53 HP Capacity- The maximum horsepower capacity marked on a boat must not exceed the computation method.
Whaler as well as other makers perform this test and mark the boat accordingly. Yes they can reduce it. It is not safe to exceed this number.
As a former member of the USCG and now the aux, the boat owner will not receive a VSC decal because of overpowering.
Fla State Statue- 327.52 Max loading and HP.
(3)- No person shall operate any vessel when said vessel exceeds the max weight, persons or horsepower. This is known as reckless operation.
327.33- Reckless or careless operation- you get a ticket for this, your insurance will do what? You get in a accident and the boat is overpowered, you already broke the law, explain it to them. Your choice.
|
| |
|
|
| kamie |
Posted on 05/23/08 - 11:02 AM
|
Member
Personal Page
Project Albums
Posts: 2975
Comments:
3
Joined: 11/04/05
|
Wrangler,
"33CFR 183.53 HP Capacity- The maximum horsepower capacity marked on a boat must not exceed the computation method."
This only says that Whaler can not put a capacity plate on a hull where the HP on the plate exceeds the formula. It applies only to the manufacture of the boat, not to me as an owner.
As for getting a VSC decal, I have one and my boat is according to you overpowered and unsafe. I expect to get a new one this year and my boat will still be powered by the same engine it was last year.
As I said, FL is one of the states that does have laws around exceeding the max HP. If I get a ticket in a boat my Insurance Co knows is powered by an engine that exceeds the capacity plate, I expect them to do nothing but renew my insurance next time around. If FL is going to give me a ticket for reckless operation of a boat simply because I have chosen to power it with what I believe is an appropriately sized engine their either are hurting for cash or have too much time on their hands.
If you review the FAQ you will see that the Coast Guard clearly says
It is not a violation of Coast Guard regulations to install or use an engine larger than specified on the capacity label, but there may be state regulations prohibiting it, and restrictions from your own insurance company regarding this.
If I am not in violation of Coast Guard regulations then I am not in violation of Federal Law!
|
| |
|
|
| Buckda |
Posted on 05/23/08 - 11:37 AM
|
Member
Personal Page
Posts: 325
Comments:
2
Joined: 01/15/07
|
Two years of receiving VSC's from the coasties on my overpowered Whaler, and my Dad's 22 is "overpowered" as well, although I realize that it exceeds the 20' limit.
Question: since my engines are on 10" setback brackets and my bow pulpit extends 18" from the bow of the boat, am I officially over 20' now?
Until now, I wouldn't need the parenthesis but here goes:
(Most) USCG personnel are pretty reasonable people and will take other factors into consideration when doing a vessel safety inspection. For instance, if everything is ship-shape, and you can easily access emergency gear in a manner that projects familiarity with it's location and use, and if you can also produce redundant or gear that exceeds requirements (for instance, additional flares, a secondary horn or whistle in case the primary fails, etc, etc, etc.) a boat that is being reasonably operated is going to pass muster.
Very few enforcement officials are going to nit pick on 10% over/under in HP...especially when there are so many other opportunities to write violations/citations and educate other boaters on basic safety topics (like having functional navigation lights, etc.)
Kamie - it is even a question that your hull is overpowered. I believe I did the calculations required in the CFR and came up with a 177 HP rate for the 18' Outrage hull.
As for your insurance: you must declare to them that you have HP that totals more than the capacity plate rating. This does not mean that they will drop you (though they may).
You would have to have a very difficult judge who wouldn't drop the "reckless operation" charge if you were doing anything other than actually being reckless.
My take is that if you're a jerk to the law enforcement officer, it is their perogative to be a jerk back to you to a certain extent...expect any and all violations they can think of to hit that citation booklet.
But if you're just operating normally and come across a L.E.O. who simply wants to do a quick safety check, you really shouldn't have anything to worry about.
Now - back to the original post:
First, as has been said; many duplicate Whaler Hulls have different ratings based on configuration. In the case of your hull, if the rating is for 20HP with remote steering, it is reasonable for you as a consumer to rig remote steering and abide by the manufacturer's recommendation for remote steering. Personally, if I were at all worried about this, I would do the research and make a photocopy of the ratings/capacities for the two models and keep that handy. If a L.E.O. DOES decide to be difficult, I would continue to be respectful, take the ticket and appeal it to an impartial judge at a later date when you can reason with them.
Don't lie or obfuscate your power ratings - deceit doesn't fly well in court or with Law Enforcement Agencies. Be truthful when asked direct questions. In the case of on the water cops, they also have some discretion and have seen some pretty wild stuff. "Overpowering" your Boston Whaler by 10% is not high on the list of priorities for things they're out there doing that day - they have DUI's, REAL reckless operators and all kinds of basic safety violations that are much more likely to result in them being called to risk their safety to save someone. You are not likely a priority as long as you're not being an idiot.
|
| |
|
|
| kamie |
Posted on 05/23/08 - 1:03 PM
|
Member
Personal Page
Project Albums
Posts: 2975
Comments:
3
Joined: 11/04/05
|
The HP calculations for the Classic 18 Outrage are 175.17 which I assume would have been rounded to 175, although I believe you could have rounded it to 180HP. This is the base hull, no brackets or bow pulpits included.
|
| |
|
|
| Tom W Clark |
Posted on 05/23/08 - 1:55 PM
|
Member
Personal Page
Posts: 4280
Comments:
7
Joined: 09/30/05
|
Kamie,
You are correct, 33CFR 183.53 allows a manufacturer to round the maximum horsepower rating UP to the nearest 5 horsepower, thus an Outrage 18 could by rights be rated for as much as 180 HP.
|
| |
|
|
| kw |
Posted on 05/23/08 - 9:42 PM
|
Member
Posts: 10
Comments:
0
Joined: 05/14/08
|
Although I didn't mean to cause an argument, I do love spirited debate. Subsequent question... If I reconfigure the 11' tender to an 11' sport, is it even possible to obtain a new capacity plate from BW reflective of the new configuration? I know, I know, a stupid question but I have to ask...
|
| |
|
|
| kamie |
Posted on 05/23/08 - 10:25 PM
|
Member
Personal Page
Project Albums
Posts: 2975
Comments:
3
Joined: 11/04/05
|
Whaler will not provide a new capacity plate. You could have one made, but as the discussion showed your not illegal and I really doubt an 11 foot whaler would be boarded unless your zipping around restricted water. If your doing that in an 11 foot boat they won't be looking at the capacity plate.
|
| |
|
