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T-Tops and Porpoising on a Montauk?
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| Grady95 |
Posted on 12/07/07 - 4:47 AM
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A T-Top might be a nice build in on the 77 restoration as well. On the Brunswick site they show a bunch of them, but they mentioned that one of their designs was made to reduce porpoising. Some of you probably have experience with t-tops on your montauks. Is this going to be an issue if I install one? This boat will be used almost exclusively for fishing, and we go out in some pretty crummy weather. A top with side curtains would be kinda' nice, but I don't want to have it become an airfoil tha messes up the ride.
Please chime in here. It would be an expensive mistake to make!
Thanks,
Grady
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| Phil T |
Posted on 12/07/07 - 6:33 AM
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Everything I have read here and at CW says a T-Top is not recommended for any of the pre 2002 Montauks. Mostly it has to do with a lack of backing plates in the deck. Have never heard of a T-top helping to reduce porpoising.
Can you show a link to this page showing the tops?
To solve porpoising, you way want to shift some weight forward. Triming the engine in (or down) helps reduce this as well.
1992 Outrage 17 I
2019 E-TEC 90, Viper 17 2+
2018 Load Rite Elite 18280096VT |
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| Jeff |
Posted on 12/07/07 - 7:33 AM
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There are many who have put a T-Top on a 17' hull but that does not mean I would do it. The is just not enough backing and support built into the floor for the top. It will cause a lot of stress cracking all over the floor. As for porpoising, I can tell you that on our 22 Guardian the T-Top is the cause of the hull's porpoising. It acts like a large sail. Also at low speeds the T-Top, with a much higher center of gravity, makes the boat pitch side to side a lot more. If you are trolling in heavy seas coming at you from the side the boat can feel like a buoy bobbing back and forth.
1993 23' Walkaround Whaler Drive |
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| Grady95 |
Posted on 12/07/07 - 9:37 AM
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Casco Bay Outrage wrote:
Everything I have read here and at CW says a T-Top is not recommended for any of the pre 2002 Montauks. Mostly it has to do with a lack of backing plates in the deck. Have never heard of a T-top helping to reduce porpoising.
Can you show a link to this page showing the tops?
To solve porpoising, you way want to shift some weight forward. Triming the engine in (or down) helps reduce this as well.
Sounds Like I'll be skipping the T-Top idea and going to a bimini. Here's the link. Look at the second to last item description.
Grady
http://www.brunswickcgboats.com/defau...%20Options
(fixed link)
Edited by Joe Kriz on 12/07/07 - 10:16 AM |
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| Phil T |
Posted on 12/07/07 - 2:03 PM
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Grady -
Thanks for the link.
The site you are looking at is for Brunswick's CPD division. These are commercial versions of several classic designs that have extra reinforcement, backing plates etc and are for the military and commercial users.
I think they are great features but the deck and consoles are not up to the commercial standards. The Outrage 18 (I think) is the smallest boat that was designed with a T-Top in mind.
Many guys use canvas sets to get the protection. A forward shelter, windshield, flying top (smaller than a bimini) side and rear curtains. While these sets can be expensive (3k), they are quite amazing.
1992 Outrage 17 I
2019 E-TEC 90, Viper 17 2+
2018 Load Rite Elite 18280096VT |
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| Grady95 |
Posted on 12/08/07 - 6:23 AM
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3K? Ouch!! Hell' I don't even have a motor yet! Sounds like I'll be mounting a golf umbrella on a dowel and lashing it to the grab rail for now!
There's a sailmaker here that does custom biminis for a good price. That will be fine. This is not the boat we'll be using for long voyages anyway.
Thanks,
Grady
BTW: Keep a look out for a 90hp 2 stroke, like a yamaha. If you see one, point me toward it. It's starting to look like I'm going to need to buy a boat/motor/trailer package used somewhere, and then dispose of the boat and trailer. Good used motors are scarce for some reason.
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| kamie |
Posted on 12/08/07 - 7:18 AM
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You can put a t-top on an 18 Outrage, but I would not. As Jeff mentioned the rolling and the porpoising caused by the t-top can be quite annoying and in the right wind it causes the boat to pound, with no way to force the bow down. If you look at the CPD link they clearly say that for boats under 25 feet you need trim tabs with a t-top. The t-top on my 18 was nice as a sturdy place to hold onto but the pounding cracked the console, made the boat hard to control at speed and caused pounding in even 1 foot seas. Overall, I am very happy that I pulled the t-top off.
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| duf |
Posted on 12/08/07 - 7:48 AM
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So, my next main event when my hull is finished it putting a t-top on my 22 CC Outrage. It sounds like i will need to put trim tabs on as well. My plan was to go with a 5 X 7 top, but perhaps i might need to revise that and go with a 4 X 6 although i would rather have the extra protection from the sun. Thoughts?
Duf
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| kamie |
Posted on 12/08/07 - 9:25 AM
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I was never impressed with the sun protection of my t-top. Mine was 4 feet wide, and 5 feet long but then I hang out on the stern seat so it wasn't even close. It did protect from the sun if you were standing at the console but for real sun protection, a canvas top is a lot better.
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| Buckda |
Posted on 12/08/07 - 1:23 PM
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A few years ago, we had a rendezvous in the North Channel of Lake Huron. A local Canadian fellow showed up with a 1970's 21' Outrage (OUTLAW) with 200 HP Merc and T-TOP. It was a sweet setup. The 21 Outrage of that era is built very similarly to the 17' Montauk, with no removable deck plate, etc...no opportunity to through-bolt the top to the deck.
We embarked on a 30 mile run to Killarney, Ontario to go to Herbert's Fish Bus (a wonderful establishment with fresh Whitefish and unique atmosphere). Once we entered the Landsdowne Channel, Brandon and his girlfriend slowed way down and eventually turned around an limped home at slow speed in order to get home by nightfall. The Top had ripped out from the deck. This was not the first time, according to him. The conditions were windy with about 2' chop.
When you go out in rough stuff, say 5-6 foot chop, you EXPECT to break things if you're pushing the hull. It's just part of what we do. But nothing should be breaking in 2' chop. If it is, you know you have a problem.
I agree with others sentiments here - forget the T-TOP unless you can THROUGH BOLT it with aluminum backing plates. Even for a 22' Outrage, this is a pretty big endeavor because it involves de-rigging the console, and installing backing plates, then re-installing the floor, re-rigging the console, drilling and tapping the holes for the top and then installing it. Not to mention the costs of the top itself.
In my opinion, a RADAR ARCH is a much easier installation, however, it does reduce the all-around fishability of the boat.
An arch COULD be installed on a Montauk. It would have a pretty unique mounting "foot" to make it work, but it could be done. You would through-bolt it sideways similar to how the bow rail is through-bolted to a backing plate outside the hull.
Good luck
Dave
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| Grady95 |
Posted on 12/08/07 - 3:45 PM
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kamie wrote:
I was never impressed with the sun protection of my t-top. Mine was 4 feet wide, and 5 feet long but then I hang out on the stern seat so it wasn't even close. It did protect from the sun if you were standing at the console but for real sun protection, a canvas top is a lot better.
I have a 95 Grady White 209 Escape center console, a Montauk on steroids as it were! This has been fitted with a custom bimini which folds back into a boot and rides like an arch. Pretty standard fare actually. It was designed so as not to interfere with rods sticking skyward from the leaning post rocket launchers in the rear, and it's forward extent covers the livewell and seating in front of the console. It pretty much does everything utilitarian that a fisherman needs. You need some kind of sun protection in these things. They act like big parabolic reflectors with you right in the center. Nice way to get cooked!
One other nice thing about a bimini is that it gets out of the way when you don't want it. A couple spring loaded clips and off she goes, unlike a T-Top which you are married to.
My reason for starting the thread was to discuss ways of providing a full enclosure for fishing in cold weather. Perch fishing up here is just starting to get good and this is going to be a really nice, stealthy little perch boat. It would be nice to make a drop curtain like shelter with a little heater in it on this whaler. That's the main reason why I thought a T-Top would provide a good frame for dropping curtains down. A bimini and longjohns will work though, and with a lot less risk!
Grady
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| Phil T |
Posted on 12/08/07 - 4:56 PM
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Dave -
Thanks for your comments. I have learned a fair amount after reading WC, CW and owning 2 whalers. Your comments add to my t- top and proper mounting knowledge.
Thanks
1992 Outrage 17 I
2019 E-TEC 90, Viper 17 2+
2018 Load Rite Elite 18280096VT |
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| Doug V |
Posted on 12/08/07 - 6:12 PM
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I have a 5x7 t-top on my 22 Outrage. It is anchored with 4 #14 wood screws and 3M 5200 at each of the 4 stanchion bases. It is also anchored to the console in 4 locations, 2 at the forward end and 2 at the aft end, with 2, 1/4-20 machine screws each.
The boat made a trip from San Diego, CA to Shelton, WA when I bought it. I don't see any ill effects to the deck or the console. I have no idea how long the t-top has been on the boat, but I believe for many years.
I have no doubt that removing the deck and installing backing plates is the correct way to install a t-top. One day I will repower this old girl and when I do, the tank cover will be pulled and I will check out everything under there. I will also install backing plates.
Until then, the t-top works just fine the way it is.
As far as sun protection is concerned, the 5x7 works great for rain and sun while salmon fishing here in the Pacific Northwest. It works so good for sun, that I sometimes wish I "could fold the bimini down", to get the warming benefits of the sun. I don't do much lounging around on the boat, but in the summer, my wife and I try to get out of town and on the water to stay cool. She likes to stay in the sun and I like to stay in the shade.
Remember, all boats are a compromise, one way or the other. One must study their options carefully and select what they think will work the best for their needs.
Doug Vazquez
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| duf |
Posted on 12/09/07 - 7:05 AM
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Doug, as always, thanks for the insight on the 22. I'm really leaning towards getting the T-Top as the only way to describe the sun/heat here is brutal. One of my main reasons for getting my Whaler is not only the enjoyment of boating, but some serious fishing offshore in the Gulf. Needless to say, you do not want to be hooked up with a 30 plus lb fish and moving about the boat passing the pole around various bimini straps! Plus, it's a very nice addition to a Whaler if its a top of nice design. I have a local guy here (i've just got to get pictures of his boat) that has a 80's vintage 22 outrage CC with a T-Top and it looks fantastic. I'm going to track him down and see what he has to say and find out who built it because it looks great. Doug, did you find it necessary to install trim tabs?
Duf
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| Doug V |
Posted on 12/09/07 - 7:17 AM
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duf,
The trim tabs were installed when I bought the boat. I have never run the boat with out the tabs, so I can't really comment on that situation. However, in my experience with the trim tabs, I would say that trim tabs would be required with the t-top.
A head wind off of either the port or starboard corners is somewhat uncomfortable. With the trim tabs I can easily counter the wind and bring the boat into a nice running attitude.
Doug Vazquez
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| HarleyFXDL |
Posted on 12/09/07 - 7:25 AM
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I've read with interest, the various opinions on T-tops and Bimini tops. As far as both are concerned, which manufacturer produces the best product for each?
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