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Premixing Oil and Gas
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| konakai818 |
Posted on 12/05/07 - 9:00 AM
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I have a 1989 70 hp Evinrude. Im thinking about removing the VRO oil tank and premixing the oil and gas. Main reason behind this is the cost of replacing my old tank. Has anyone done this with their engine? And if so how do you like the results.
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| drandlett |
Posted on 12/05/07 - 9:56 AM
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We have a Envinrude 150 engine and have had the VRO removed, we now mix. It runs fine, but lacks the oil variation so it smokes more than with the VRO, and in my opinion mixing is a pain unto itself.
To me not having to mix my fuel is a big bonus, so if it was me I'd keep the VRO if at all possible.
Dana
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| jlh49 |
Posted on 12/05/07 - 10:38 AM
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After the warranty expired on my 1989 200 Johnson, I discontinued use of the oil side of the VRO and went to pre-mix. The motor was running great when I sold it in 2005 after replacing it with a Yamaha four stroke. I used more oil, experienced some minor plug fouling during slow speeds, and the motor did smoke a little more. I never felt pouring oil into an oil reservoir was any less effort than adding it to the fuel tank. However, input from members during a recent thread on this very subject enlightened my thoughts on this issue, and if given the choice today I might opt to keep using the VRO for oiling.
Jack Harley
1989 Outrage 22' 2005 Yamaha F150 |
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| Derwd24 |
Posted on 12/05/07 - 11:19 AM
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Given the price of oil today, I think if you keep the VRO installed, you'll make the cost of the new tank back eventually as it does save compared to premixing...
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| konakai818 |
Posted on 12/05/07 - 12:30 PM
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Thanks for all the quick input! I guess I'll be buying that oil tank this week. Checked around and everyone is selling them for about $160. It was just another attempt to cut the cost on the restoration.
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| Joe Kriz |
Posted on 12/05/07 - 12:34 PM
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Take a look on eBay... You can buy brand new ones there from time to time for much less.
Just make sure you get the correct version for you engine... 1995 and older.......
I'm glad you decided to keep the VRO....
I personally would not buy any boat/engine combination that someone has disconnected the VRO..
That would worry me....
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| Joe Kriz |
Posted on 12/06/07 - 1:01 PM
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fabricatordave,
Most of what the "mechanics" tell us about the VRO is myth....
I would like any mechanic to show proof, beyond any reasonable doubt, that an OMC VRO system caused an engine to seize up from lack of oil due to the VRO pump.
Many mechanics just blame it on the VRO because it is hard to determine sometimes why the engine just blows.... It's easy to say it must have been the VRO...
Sorry, I just don't buy that statement as a whole.
Sure, I'm sure there have been some failures... But that is NO reason for mechanics to advise everyone to disable their VRO systems... That is ridiculous in my opinion...
I would never disable my VRO (now called OMS, Oil Metering System) from any engine.
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| ABL |
Posted on 12/06/07 - 1:15 PM
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I had a 70HP with VRO. It was new to me and I thought all I had to do was add oil. Well, I didn't realize that the oil tank didn't have just oil in it when I bought it...since the oil floats, I couldn't see that the engine was stalling because I was trying to lubricate with the water in the bottom of the tank. The repair shop showed me the scorched cyl and the water from the tank......so just be careful.
The first thing I did on my next boat was to remove the tank and clean it spotless.
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| Joe Kriz |
Posted on 12/06/07 - 1:24 PM
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ABL,
That's too bad that happened.
However, that was not the fault of the VRO pump or system.
That was the fault of the prior owner letting water to get into the system somehow.
Maybe a cracked cap on the VRO tank, or a cracked tank...
My tank is located inside a battery box which helps protect the tank from the elements.
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| konakai818 |
Posted on 12/06/07 - 2:28 PM
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I never thought of putting it in a battery box! Thats a small price to pay to keep it protected. Thanks again for all the advice it's much appreciated.
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| Joe Kriz |
Posted on 12/06/07 - 2:38 PM
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konakai,
In the photo below, you can see 2 battery boxes on the left side of the photo. One is for the oiler and the other is for my single battery. The other plastic oiler on the far right is my Accu-Mix system for my kicker engine.
[img]http://users.sisqtel.net/jkriz/Outrage/rear-inside.jpg[/img]
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| Jeff |
Posted on 12/06/07 - 8:37 PM
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A lot of engine failures are blamed on the VRO failure but many of them are caused by other issues. It is just easy to blame the VRO. Out of all of the oiling systems it is the one with the least amount of moving parts which means it has lfewest parts that could fail. Also, it is one of the easier systems to replace and not that costly either. Ever have a Merc system go out on you? They are a lot of failures that are due to poor carb maintenance or a build up of carbon on the rings. If the carbs get full of old / varnished fuel or plugged with a bit of debris it will cause it to run lean and burn up the cylinders it feeds. To many this was caused because of lack of oil, no kidding it was lack of oil but, it was not the fault of the VRO system it was a fowled carb that caused it. If the VRO system failed completely then ALL of the internals would be shot not just a single cylinder or group of cylinders feed by that carb.
A lot of motors that show scuffing and scoring of cylinder walls did not get that way due to lack of oil. Most of the time it was caused by carbon build up on the piston and rings. Once the build up gets to a point it will cause the rings to no longer move freely and even deform. This is when scoring occurs. This will happen even if the motor is getting the correct amount of oil. Once this begins it increases internal cylinder temps and this will cause failure. This carbon build can be caused by over mixing oil which, when premixing, can easily and repeatedly happen.
In both of these cases if you are running the VRO or premix the motor is going to fail you and not because there is an incorrect amount for oil in the fuel. It really comes down to maintenance of your motor.
Yes if you have an older VRO especially one that is NOT FULLY ethanol rated you should think about replacing it. The latest generation of the VRO was released in February or March of this year. I had mine done on my 1985 235 V6 in May and is was $485 installed. That is a rather cheap price for a piece of mind. Outside of that there are no real maintenance costs that go with the VRO. Here is the easiest way to have a flow test done on the system. I always marked my tank with a pencil before every use so that I could check to make sure it as drawing. Honestly so long you as routinely check all of your lines and make sure they are not cracked, check all of you hose clamps for a good closure, make sure your alarm system works, and routinely follow your usage you will have problem operation. If you let your system go and do not routinely check it, you are opening yourself up for problems. Whether it is a VRO or any other oiling system. If this is to much for owner or to costly maybe owning a boat is something that is not for them.
Honestly I passed on a lot of boats because of a disconnected VRO system. To me, and this is my opinion, I see it as someone just following here say and not doing their homework about something they own and operate. I also see it as someone not willing to cover the cost of proper care on their vessel. If they have the VRO disconnected what else on the motor and hull has been improperly cared for.
Edited by Jeff on 12/06/07 - 8:57 PM
1993 23' Walkaround Whaler Drive |
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| Joe Kriz |
Posted on 12/06/07 - 8:41 PM
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fabricator,
This was directed at YOU.......
fabricatordave,
Most of what the "mechanics" tell us about the VRO is myth....
The rest of my post was NOT directed at you... Just general discussion about VRO and what mechanics tell people..
I don't know where you get the idea that the older systems were "failure prone"...
Do some fail? Yes? but I wouldn't say they were prone to failure...
All cars are prone to failure too.... If cars had VRO's, I would still keep mine.....
Anything below this line is not directed to fabricatordave...
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I have a 1985 Evinrude 150 with NO problems...
I also recently sold a 1985 Evinrude 70 hp that I had for 15 years without any problems...
I have also had other OMC motors with no problems.
The VRO system does need checking from time to time.. Yearly would be ideal but not many people do it.
I understand why some people would disconnect the VRO..
They are in college and can't afford it is one that comes to mind.
I am going to stick my neck and and tell all mechanics my point of view here.
Here is to all the mechanics who tell everyone to disconnect the VRO because it is a bad system.
HOGWASH.........
If any mechanic told me to disconnect my VRO because it could blow my engine, they would NOT be my mechanic....
I also would never recommend that mechanic to anyone... Ever......
I have a great OMC master mechanic and he does NOT advocate disconnecting the VRO..
This is not directed at any members here.....
This also does not mean that a good mechanic can have their own opinion of the VRO system.
They may just not like the VRO system.
Am I dead against some mechanics just telling everyone to disconnect their VRO system?
Most definitely.... This is one thing that I obviously have a very strong opinion about.
I know there will be more discussion on this but for everyone, please, just the facts, and proof, that the VRO actually caused your engine to blow....
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| Joe Kriz |
Posted on 12/06/07 - 9:45 PM
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Here is my major concern about mechanics or people telling everyone to just disconnect the VRO because it is prone to failure or is a bad system.
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Concern:
A person buys his/her first boat. Takes it to a mechanic that they don't know because they have never owned a boat before. The first thing the mechanic tells them is to disconnect the VRO... The new boat owner listens to them because they don't know any better just from lack of experience.
For the rest of their life they think the VRO is a bad system. Is this fair to the VRO system?
Or, is this fair to the new boat owner.. They never get to experience how easy it is to use the VRO system as opposed to mixing fuel the rest of their life unless they go to a 4 stroke.
For the rest of their life they tell all their friends to disconnect the VRO... and the myth continues..
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I am opinionated on this subject and I feel that many mechanics and people don't know what they are talking about when they tell others to just disconnect the VRO....
Yes, and again, the VRO, like anything else in this world, does fail... But not very often. Definitely not often enough to tell everyone to just disconnect it...
Again, if any mechanic can show me proof that an every engine that blew up was caused by a faulty VRO, then I might listen... However, this is not the case. They might be able to prove a few engines blew up due to the VRO, but that still does not justify telling everyone to disconnect the VRO because it is a bad system.
I would like people to hear the other side of the story from the owners of VRO systems and the mechanics who are knowledgeable about the system. It's a good system. It rarely fails if taken care of. It may need to be replaced once or twice in the engines life span.
Shoot, I never did anything to mine in 15 years and it still worked just fine.
I have one working right now and it's original to the 1985 Evinrude 150. I may replace this to the newer OMS pump next year just to try it out but certainly not because the old one has failed.
I guess I am just sick and tired of hearing that we should all disconnect our VRO's because some mechanic tells us to... It's always some mechanic... We never hear who that mechanic is...
Joe Blow? Who is Joe Blow anyway? I think he is the guy down the street that has a tool box and might work on one or two outboards a year....
We generally don't hear from a reputable mechanic telling everyone to disconnect the VRO system..
Do we really? If so, I would like to hear from them....
I mentioned above about the college student maybe not being able to afford a new VRO pump.
Hey, I was in college.
I can also think of another reason to disconnect the pump. If the engine is old and not worth $300 as that is about what the VRO pump cost... Why throw good money away. Either run without the VRO or buy a new or used engine that works and also has a good working VRO....
Bottom line:
Please don't just disconnect your VRO systems just because Joe Blow tells us it's a bad system.
(disclaimer: the above statement is not directed at anyone here. It is directed towards the myth).....
I want to put an end to this myth of disconnecting the VRO.
If economics don't allow you to fix the VRO, then fine. You have no choice. Disconnect it.
Just be knowledgeable about it. If you want to disconnect it, then that is obviously your choice.
Edited by Joe Kriz on 12/06/07 - 11:18 PM |
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| MW |
Posted on 12/06/07 - 11:36 PM
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I had trouble getting up the $ for my new outboard (yes, I went to KOL-edge), I chose to go "NON-VRO", and had it disconnected when I bought new, it saved me some $ (I think), and it's only a 50 H.P. so mixing is NOT a big deal for me (6 gallon porta-tank). If I had a larger engine I probably would have went with the VRO, it's one less system to break down on the engine (I'm sure that something else I added to my boat will break instead), I am NOT familiar with the newer VRO systems but, I remember "Yammy" owner's expressing some dissappointment with them years ago at K&K Marine here on L.I., other Yammy owners loved them. I think it's just something in my head that fears that little diaphram will tear (maybe they don't even use diaphrams any more), it's kind of like when I jack up a car with a hydraulic jack, I'm sure it's safe to go under the car but, it's only a .25 cent "O-ring" between Me and death, so Jack stand's get used, maybe it's the fact that "I see" the oil going in the fuel tank, so I worry less. I also use "Carbon Guard" in the fuel (seems to help a lot with this lousy fuel quality). When moving up and down in the rpm zone on the engine does the VRO keep up ? or is there "Lag" time there ? this is NOT a fight, or a question directed at ANYONE, or a "Dig", I think it's a good subject with lots of myth's and questions, just good discussion to learn from. Is it still recommended that some oil be put in the fuel tank in addition to the VRO system ?
mw
Edited by MW on 12/06/07 - 11:40 PM |
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| hoppinjohn |
Posted on 12/08/07 - 6:35 AM
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would you argue with what the mechanic does on his vessel? Ask the mechanic. If you are willing to throw him money when your engine needs attention, won't you also listen to his free opinion on what he does on his vessel. Ask him to take a look at his systems; it would shed a lot of light on his business. Like any human going offshore, he does not want to get stranded or tie up to a tow. If you trust him, Trust him. JMHO.
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| Jeff |
Posted on 12/08/07 - 8:06 AM
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John,
I would not argue with a mechcanic that does this on thier own vessel. I would just leave and find a new one. I have found that trying to reason with ignorant people is a fruitless pursuit of time and energy. My mechanic STRONGLY recommends not disconnecting the VRO. Since he is the oldest continuously operating OMC sales and service dealer in the world I think he knows what he is doing.
Just because someone can turn a wrench does not make them a reputable mechanic. Heck a well trained monkey can turn a wrench.
Anyway if you have a mechanic that whole heartedly believes the VRO should be disconnected and you trust him fine. That is you choice. However if your mechanic just leaves your VRO pump in place and plugs it, you really better think about finding a new mechanic. You should NEVER just disconnect then plug the oiling side of the VRO pump. If you wish to not run the VRO pump you should remove it and replace it with a standard fuel pump which is under $100. This is a good test of a mechanics true knowledge about a VRO.
Edited by Jeff on 12/08/07 - 8:20 AM
1993 23' Walkaround Whaler Drive |
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| jlh49 |
Posted on 12/08/07 - 9:08 AM
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As additional information in this regard, Joe Reeves posted the following about OMC VRO pumps at Marineengine.com. His profile reflects 30+ years OMC experience.
(VRO Changeover Judgement Call)
(J. Reeves)
The VROs first came out in 1984 and have been upgraded quite a few times. In my opinion, back around 1988, they had perfected them but I think that they were upgraded even more since then. As long as the warning system is operating as it should, I feel quite at ease with them.
Some boaters have voiced their thoughts such as "What if that overpriced plastic horn should fail while I'm under way for some reason, and the VRO decides to fail five minutes later?" Obviously that would result in a big problem which really brings their fears into view.
The word "ease" is the key word though. If one has the slightest feeling of being ill at ease with that setup, then they should take the route they feel more at ease with. A judgement call each individual would need to make on their own.
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(VRO Pump Conversion To Straight Fuel Pump)
(J. Reeves)
You can convert the VRO pump into a straight fuel pump, eliminating the oil tank and VRO pump warning system, but retain the overheat warning setup by doing the following:
1 - Cut and plug the oil line at the engine so that the oil side of the VRO pump will not draw air into its system. Trace the wires from the back of the VRO to its rubber plug (electrical plug) and disconnect it.
2 - Trace the two wires from the oil tank to the engine, disconnect those two wires, then remove them and the oil tank.
3 - Mix the 50/1 oil in the proper amount with whatever quantity fuel you have. Disconnect the fuel line at the engine. Pump the fuel primer bulb until fuel exits that hose with the tint of whatever oil you used. Reconnect the fuel hose.
That's it. If you want to test the heat warning system to ease your mind, have the key in the on position, then ground out the tan heat sensor wire that you'll find protruding from the cylinder head. The warning horn should sound off.
Edited by jlh49 on 12/08/07 - 9:11 AM
Jack Harley
1989 Outrage 22' 2005 Yamaha F150 |
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| Bob Kemmler JR |
Posted on 12/09/07 - 9:42 AM
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I think the main reason VRO's get blamed for powerhead failure is the rubber line can and will dry/crack with age. Once this happens it allows air into the system and throws off the oil ratio or can be enough to cease it completely. Doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out what happens next. I am in the same boat so to speak as i'm unsure if I want to use the vro on my 1999 150 Evinrude or just eliminate it and premix thus by insuring I have plenty of oil in the mix. I think the oil line is the weak link on the system. That being said you can find complete tank/line kits for under $100 shipped to your door. My decision is made tricker because I also have a kicker in the equation. So do I try to hang a add-on oil injection unit on the kicker or do I just run them both pre-mix? Good thing I have plenty of time to figure this one out
On the hunt for a classic 19 or 21 Whaler |
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| Binkie |
Posted on 12/11/07 - 3:46 AM
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I think one thing to consider is how much the boat will be used, how many gallons of gas will be run through the motors in the course of the year. Obviously the premix will be more expensive to run, but how much more. If is it not significant, and you are unsure of your VRO system, I would go with premix. The oil injection on my `87 Suzuki DT150 makes me a little nervous, too. but I never heard of a failure. I know many VRO`s have failed. I never understood what is entailed in converting to run premix.
Rich
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