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Repower anxiety
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| renoduckman |
Posted on 05/28/20 - 1:48 PM
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The time has come for me to repower my 1974 Montauk. I have stalled on this for a year. I now have the cash in hand.
I have decided on a F70 Yamaha and narrowed it down to two dealers. Both have been in business for many years and have good reputations. Both have good reputations and good pricing. One does a bunch of Yamaha repowers.
My delema is both are giving me some initial resistance to mounting the engine 2 holes up as the brain trust on here recommendes. Now I have not sat across the desk with check book in hand. But am going to talk again Wensday.
So first question is any advice on how I can convey,convince or fight with them to mount the engine correctly? I am thinking the check book will do it but not sure.
Second question if they refuse to, do you consider it a deal breaker or do I just buy it and raise it up myself? Dad and I are both working men and it can't be that difficult.
Last question, in the industry do
You pay for the whole process upfront or pay for the engine now and the balance upon completion?
Thanks Joe
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| JRP |
Posted on 05/28/20 - 6:43 PM
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Sounds like you have two good options. I can’t imagine either one is going to give you grief about mounting height. They may resist initially, but just tell them you’ve done your homework and the idiosyncrasies of your hull design require a higher engine mounting than most other designs. And put it into writing on the purchase agreement.
You can ask the respective shops about what their policies are as far as deposits etc.
Great choice of engine, btw.
19 Outrage II (1992) |
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| Weatherly |
Posted on 05/29/20 - 4:15 AM
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Joe:
Your "Installation Anxiety" is common. Many members have had this same problem. Some installers listen and do what the boat owner requested; other dealers just install the new outboard the way they think is correct.
I recommend you talk directly with the installer of the motor, if you can do so. Show them the mounting height diagram. And have a picture taken from this website that shows the F70 mounted 2-3 holes up. The stern shot of hullinthwater's personal page is an excellent photograph to use.
Modern outboard and propeller design improvements are the reason why The Montauk 16 now requires a higher mounting height.
I like the suggestion to also put the mounting height instructions in writing as part of the purchase contract.
Lastly, I recommend you make a deposit for the purchase and installation, and stipulate in writing on the contract full payment is contingent upon the outboard being installed the way you the owner of the boat wants it done.
Good luck with this.
PS: If all else fails, know that it is not a difficult task to raise an outboard motor on a BW16. I was able to raise the Y90 on my 1974 BW16 in under an hours time with only a box wrench/ratchet and use of the trailer jack. The most troubling aspect was the Yamaha dealer used silicone applied to the outboard transom bracket that took me awhile to remove from the gelsurface.
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| Phil T |
Posted on 05/29/20 - 5:19 AM
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Your predicament is old as .....(you know).
The one element you do not include that does factor into motor mounting height is the prop.
Some models are designed to run more effectively buried, others close to the surface and some in-between.
Members have reported good results and recommend the following props for the F70 and the Montauk 17:
13.25 x 14 PowerTech SCP (6100, 3 holes up)
13.25 x 14 Yamaha Performance Series, 2/3 holes (WOT of 35)
13 x 17 Yamaha Painted SS
CF: https://www.whalercentral.com/forum/v...d_id=23181
As for addressing the dealer. The engine bracket has 4 holes in the upper bracket and a slot for the lower bolts. This is to allow the engine to be mounted at a different height. You are about to spend $9,000 dollars of your hard earned money and want the engine mounted 2 or 3 holes 'up". It is your money and your boat. If the dealer will not happily comply, walk away, they are idiots. It is called customer service. Seriously.
1992 Outrage 17 I
2019 E-TEC 90, Viper 17 2+
2018 Load Rite Elite 18280096VT |
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| Phil T |
Posted on 05/29/20 - 5:22 AM
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Dealers order the engine and components. A refundable deposit of 1/2 is acceptable, balance due after your final inspection.
1992 Outrage 17 I
2019 E-TEC 90, Viper 17 2+
2018 Load Rite Elite 18280096VT |
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| biggiefl |
Posted on 05/29/20 - 8:03 AM
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I am "assuming" that they are both pushing back because the engine is mounted in the blind holes and they do not want to fill and drill which is additional cost to them.
24 Whalers so far.... |
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| Phil T |
Posted on 05/29/20 - 8:41 AM
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If the current engine is using the blind holes, have them redrill the lower holes. Note - Do not use dowels but plugs.
See the mounting diagram article. https://www.whalercentral.com/article...icle_id=82
1992 Outrage 17 I
2019 E-TEC 90, Viper 17 2+
2018 Load Rite Elite 18280096VT |
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| renoduckman |
Posted on 05/29/20 - 9:25 AM
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biggiefl wrote:
I am "assuming" that they are both pushing back because the engine is mounted in the blind holes and they do not want to fill and drill which is additional cost to them. Yes the engine is mounted in the blind holes. But I think they feel the I'm wrong on the mounting height.
I will bring a picture of the engine mounted correctly and a copy of the hole layout with me Wednesday. Go from there.
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| Midlands-Montauk |
Posted on 05/31/20 - 6:38 PM
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I went through the same decision process. I went with the F70 and am glad I did. I dealt with a dealer that I have done business for years who was a Whaler dealer before Whaler was sold. I was told a F70 was the best choice. I paid nothing down, full amount when picking up boat. I provided pictures and info from this site about the installation and they did it exactly as I requested and it performs very well. The F70 is a great engine.
They plugged the blind bolt holes and fiberglass over them and they had another re-power there when I picked up my Montauk and they installed a Yamaha 90. My rep said the owner insisted he have a 90. I told them I should get a discount for training them in engine mounting.
BTW I run 34mph at 6200rpm light load, Bimini up.
1985 Montauk 17, 2019 Yamaha F70 |
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| renoduckman |
Posted on 05/31/20 - 8:15 PM
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Thanks for all the expert help and encouragement.
One fly in the ointment I forgot to mention.
The lakes I fish on are at 5000 to 6000 foot elevation. Most near 6000 feet. So is there a formula that can be used to correct for this? Is there a way to take the know proven propellers listed above , and adjust for this. Or is it going to be a trial and error method? I appreciate any input.
Forgive me I don't know if I should have started this in a separate thread.
Joe
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| Phil T |
Posted on 06/01/20 - 6:37 AM
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Expect there will be a reduction of power due to elevation. EFI engines are better adjusting to it than carburated engines. In the old days, they would change the jet size in the carbs.
Do you always boat at high elevation? Do you want to rig the boat for 6k?
Prop selection will be very important.
I helped an Outrage 18 owner at high elevation in Colorado with setup.
1992 Outrage 17 I
2019 E-TEC 90, Viper 17 2+
2018 Load Rite Elite 18280096VT |
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| renoduckman |
Posted on 06/01/20 - 8:33 AM
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Yes I always fish at high altitude. Rigging for 5500 feet be ideal. 3 or 4 lakes I fish routinely. I have not used my boat at sea level in 20 years.
I'm hoping the performance drop at this altitude won't be huge.
Thanks
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| biggiefl |
Posted on 06/01/20 - 9:07 AM
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What are you running now?
24 Whalers so far.... |
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| Finnegan |
Posted on 06/01/20 - 10:19 AM
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A couple of things mentioned here need further explanation.
First of all, your Whaler has a shallow splashwell, since the hull was designed before the use of the current B.I.A engine bolt hole mounting pattern, now used by all engines. I have a Montauk with a similar splashwell, and you CAN"T mount any engine all the way down. Both dealers should be made aware of that situation.
The reason is the 8" vertical separation of the mounting hole sets. The splashwell is not deep enough for the bottom bolts to go in (always from the outside on the bottom) and receive the nuts and washers on the inside. OMC's old blind hole system solved this, but was a poor solution and is no longer relevant nor used. The engine HAS to be mounted 2 holes up, and then the bottom set of holes can receive the bolts though the top set of four or five. This gives a 6 1/2" vertical separation, which the transom design can accommodate. I believe this site has a complete reference drawing on how to accomplish this mounting configuration,
All of this also means, as mentioned, additional expense of first repairing the bottom hole damage from the blind hole system. Once the old engine is off, the transom needs to have this filling and gelcoat work done before the new engine can go on. Be sure your shop has a skilled fiberglass guy who can do this work, or you will end up with a butchered job, most likely with the holes just filled with caulking. If they can't do it, take the boat to a glass shop that can, or do it yourself, It's not that difficult.
The other issue that has emerged is your elevation. I really question whether the 70 is enough power at 5500 ft. You will loose about 15 HP, so I would seriously consider going up to a 90. The boat WILL be able to handle the extra weight. Many Montauks have been repowered with the popular E-tec 90 Evinrude, and today's 4 stroke 90's only weigh a "battery weight" more than an E-tec (320# vs 360#).
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| renoduckman |
Posted on 06/01/20 - 10:29 AM
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I have a 1988 80hp Mercury now. The worn out beast keeps running, I have to give it credit. It seems to have a surplus of power even though it's worn and never had the jets changed.
I suppose I should give some info on how I use the boat. 80 % of the time I fish alone, the rest with 1 other person. I will usually have a 5 or 10 minute cruise at an easy 24 mph, then troll for 3 or 4 hours.
I can go much faster but blistering top speed not important to me. The new engine is a want. Better cold starting and being able to occasionally go on Lake Tahoe is reason for repower. Hi
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| Phil T |
Posted on 06/01/20 - 11:20 AM
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The price difference between a F70 and F90 is not that much. If you decide to sell the boat in the future, a F90 will be a selling point. Just consider it.
1992 Outrage 17 I
2019 E-TEC 90, Viper 17 2+
2018 Load Rite Elite 18280096VT |
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| biggiefl |
Posted on 06/01/20 - 11:26 AM
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For your use the 70hp should be plenty. Consider what Phil said as well.
24 Whalers so far.... |
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| Finnegan |
Posted on 06/01/20 - 11:58 PM
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One final note - It was mentioned above that you currently have an engine "blind hole" mounted. Since the engine is a Mercury, that can't be possible, as Mercury never used that option in the transom bracket.
Therefore your engine, if down all the way, must be lag bolted into the transom at the lower bolts, not a good idea, and something you don't want to continue with the new engine.
Those bottom lag bolt holes will have to be filled, but the top holes can be re-used. New holes will have to be drilled for the bottom set of bolts at the 6-1/2" dimension, and the engine will indeed automatically be raised 1-1/2", something modern propellers, even aluminum, will easily accommodate. There is no reason to mount the engine any higher, as with a top speed below forty, there is nothing to be gained.
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| reelescape1 |
Posted on 06/02/20 - 3:34 AM
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I bought a 1988 17' Montauk last August and spent the better part of the Winter "restoring" it. I had sold my aluminum boat with Yamaha F70 after 360 hours. The F70 was a fabulous engine although I opted for the Yamaha F90 for the Montauk. I have almost 40 hours on it and can tell you first-hand, it's like the difference between a big block Chevy and small block Chevy. I have no regrets and the price difference was $1,000.
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| renoduckman |
Posted on 06/02/20 - 10:09 AM
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Finnegan wrote:
One final note - It was mentioned above that you currently have an engine "blind hole" mounted. Since the engine is a Mercury, that can't be possible, as Mercury never used that option in the transom bracket.
Therefore your engine, if down all the way, must be lag bolted into the transom at the lower bolts, not a good idea, and something you don't want to continue with the new engine.
Those bottom lag bolt holes will have to be filled, but the top holes can be re-used. New holes will have to be drilled for the bottom set of bolts at the 6-1/2" dimension, and the engine will indeed automatically be raised 1-1/2", something modern propellers, even aluminum, will easily accommodate. There is no reason to mount the engine any higher, as with a top speed below forty, there is nothing to be gained.
I appreciate the input Finnegan, I have enjoyed reading your posts over the years.
Yes the engine has lag bolts in the bottom holes. Sometimes i
Use the wrong terminology.
I have a pretty good understanding of the splash well lower bolt issue from the excellent work on the site. I am going to have to relay that to the dealer.
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