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Trailer capacity question...
dauntless-n-miami	#1  Posted on 07/10/14 - 6:58 AM
Member Personal Page Project Albums Posts: 315 Comments: 0 Joined: 11/05/08	Hello to all and an inquiry. I am in the process of replacing my trailers leaf springs due to a failure 2 weeks ago while trailering the Dauntless back home from an outing. I am a bit stumped with my trailers capacity ratings. The trailers stated GVWR is 1950 Lbs. and the GAWR is 1700 Lbs., from information I have reviewed (online and from Boat US) with a single axle trailer (as mine is) the GAWR and the GVWR should be equal yes??? Based on a few available spec's my Hulls (dry weight) is approximately 800 Lbs., 2007 Yamaha 90 2-stroke 261 Lbs., 18 gals. of fuel (when tank is full) approximately 108 Lbs., and as an exaggerated estimate an additional 500 Lbs. to include rigging, fishing/diving gear, and drink cooler/forward seat. That would bring my boats assumed weight to roughly 1669 Lbs.. That figure puts me at 31 Lbs. (estimated) below my GAWR (Gross Axel Weight Rating). My trailer was (according to the previous owner) custom built for my/the Dauntless 15 in 2006, it is an Aluminum "Float-On" type with primary and (recently installed by me) forward keel bunks. It has no keel rollers. It has/had a "Mono-Leaf" style spring and I am replacing with a 2-Leaf (1000 Lbs. rating per spring) model. I realize that my "new" leaf spring combined weight capacity is 2000 Lbs. which is slightly above the trailers GVWR and greatly above the GAWR. I have inquired with a couple of local trailer retailers/manufactures and they feel I will have no issues due to the extra spring weight capacity, but they offer no real details to the difference in the GVWR vs. GAWR. I will say, they would certainly love to sell me a new axel assembly to match the trailers 1950 Lbs. GVWR. Any and all thoughts/suggestion to the capacity difference will be greatly appreciated, till then...have a Happy Summer and safe boating to all. Angel M. 1996 Dauntless 15, Sportsman Pkg. - 2007 Yamaha 90 HP 2-Stroke
wing15601	#2  Posted on 07/10/14 - 10:05 AM
Member Posts: 699 Comments: 0 Joined: 07/14/12	If your Gross Axle Weight Rating is 1700 lbs then it seems to me that would be the Gross Vehicle Weight rating also. Your trailer frame will handle up to 1950 pounds with an axle rated for at least that weight but since they chose an axle with a 1700 lb. rating then that's the max capacity you should expect the rig to handle. The thing I'm not sure of is, does raising the spring rating raise the axle capacity? In any case, manufacturers always give the weight capacity ratings a large margin of error to avoid liability so you are probably perfectly fine with your rig's weight on that trailer. I winter in Ft. Myers and summer in St. Joseph, Michigan. It’s now about 12 years since I’ve joined this group. I gave my 1972 whaler to my daughter and sold the 17’. Bought an O’Day 28 sailboat and sailed on Lake Michigan. Yesterday I bought a 2005 130 Sport.
dauntless-n-miami	#3  Posted on 07/10/14 - 10:30 AM
Member Personal Page Project Albums Posts: 315 Comments: 0 Joined: 11/05/08	Thanks wing 15601 for the reply. We share the same conclusion with the capacity rating, stronger trailer frame set-up but a tad lighter in the axel department. I figure the ride on the trailer for the Dauntless might be a bit firmer with the revised leaf spring capacity. I read in a few different boating forums that the "Mono-Leaf" tapered springs are more prone to failure/breakage than the traditional straight "single or multi" leaf design. Maintanence wise the "Mono-Leaf" is easier to clean as opposed to a multi leaf especially with a salt water use trailer. Can't win them all I guess but, we can certainly coat the new springs well with a Zinc rich Galvanized paint and grease well the components during assembly, use stainless hardware along with annual inspections for corrosion. Thanks again for the input...till the next thread. Angel M. 1996 Dauntless 15, Sportsman Pkg. - 2007 Yamaha 90 HP 2-Stroke
Dave Wheeler	#4  Posted on 07/10/14 - 7:53 PM
Member Posts: 31 Comments: 0 Joined: 01/07/08	Having acquired a travel trailer last summer, I discovered that most travel trailers have the same situation regarding the gross axle weight rating and the gross vehicle weight rating. In the case of my trailer and several others I looked the difference in the 2 weight ratings was exactly the recommended hitch weight . The tow vehicle picks up the difference. You also have to check the weight capacity of the tires. Sometimes the tires furnished with the trailer can not carry the gross weight capacity of the trailer. I recommend that one should have 10% to 20% excess capacity for their boat trailer, in order to accommodate extra items that thrown into the boat. 10% for a dual axle trailer and 20% for a single axle trailer.
wing15601	#5  Posted on 07/10/14 - 9:20 PM
Member Posts: 699 Comments: 0 Joined: 07/14/12	You are correct, Dave and I didn't think of that. The weight on the axle is the load weight minus the tongue weight. So Angel, if you choose springs with ratings which match the axel you should be set up perfectly. I winter in Ft. Myers and summer in St. Joseph, Michigan. It’s now about 12 years since I’ve joined this group. I gave my 1972 whaler to my daughter and sold the 17’. Bought an O’Day 28 sailboat and sailed on Lake Michigan. Yesterday I bought a 2005 130 Sport.
gary0319	#6  Posted on 07/11/14 - 2:59 AM
Member Personal Page Posts: 218 Comments: 0 Joined: 08/25/12	I replaced the springs on my continental trailer a couple of years ago. One thing I didn't anticipate is that the boat needed more vertices clearance since it sat higher on the new springs. Just a heads up. Gary 1998 Dauntless 15 - 1998 Mercury 60
dauntless-n-miami	#7  Posted on 07/11/14 - 11:32 AM
Member Personal Page Project Albums Posts: 315 Comments: 0 Joined: 11/05/08	Thanks for the info guy's. I too didn't think to include the tongue weight into the GAWR equation. So my theoretical tongue weight should be 250 Lbs. if my GVWR is 1950 Lbs. with a GAWR @ 1700 Lbs.??? Wing the smallest weight capacity leaf spring I could source was what I purchased being 1000 Lbs. per assembly and manufactured in the U.S.A.. To go lighter or to match the GAWR I would run the chance of ending up with yet another "Mono-Leaf" tapered unit and possibly sourced from China or who knows where. I feel my new set-up will do well. There are a few boating forums whom have been discussing issues related to inferior imported trailer parts primarily in the leaf spring depatment due to a rise in failure/breakage after a year or two after replacement. That's not good news to hear, so for those who have need to contract cargo, travel, and/or boat trailer repairs inquire as to the origin of the parts and hardware if possible and if it matters demand U.S. quality. And a big hello to my friend Gary on the FL. west coast. My boats ride height will not change Gary with the spring replacement, if anything due to the revised capacity the ride may be a bit firmer on my Dauntlesses rump. I will be extra careful when towing and dealing with the conditions of the road to alleviate a harsh ride on my boat. I came across a very interesting trailer device to aid in the event of a leaf spring failure while towing. The company is Research Machine Development (RMD) out of California the system is called "Trailer Safety Device". The owner being an avid fresh water angler came up with the design after various of his tournament fishing buddies began to experience leaf spring failures back in 2006. I had an opportunity to talk to the inventor/designer a few weeks ago to inquire about his product, interesting chap. He's a machinist/tool and die maker to boot... Thought to share this information for those unaware. Thanks again to all... Angel M. 1996 Dauntless 15, Sportsman Pkg. - 2007 Yamaha 90 HP 2-Stroke
Dave Wheeler	#8  Posted on 07/11/14 - 11:52 AM
Member Posts: 31 Comments: 0 Joined: 01/07/08	One more thought. Why bother with leaf springs at all. I have torsion axles on both of my trailers. It gets rid of all the bouncing with a full or empty trailer. Your Whaler will love you for giving it a limo like ride instead of an off road Jeep like ride. The hidden bonus is you should be able to set the trailer so your boat rides lower. They seem to be impervious to the elements. I had them on a snowmobile trailer for about 10 years. They were constantly exposed to salty on snowy roads. The torsion axle was just like new when I gave to my daughter.
dauntless-n-miami	#9  Posted on 07/11/14 - 2:05 PM
Member Personal Page Project Albums Posts: 315 Comments: 0 Joined: 11/05/08	I did consider retro-fitting to a Torsion axel Dave but, the higher expense and lack of being able to move the trailer for an estimate side lined the idea a least for this Summer boating season. To re-cap, I discovered that my Port side leaf spring had completely failed/broke from both hangers after parking my Whaler back in the driveway and securing the trailer. The weight of the Dauntless actually kept the spring pinned in place and fortunately the drive home from the marina/boat ramp was a casual one through residential roadways. If not for those circumstances the axel may have shifted from position and ruined an awesome day of boating. I've owned a previous boat with a torsion axel trailer and they are great, I'll properly prep this new assembly and hope to get a few good years out of them and consider a torsion axel for the next redo. Thanks again for the input... Angel M. 1996 Dauntless 15, Sportsman Pkg. - 2007 Yamaha 90 HP 2-Stroke
dauntless-n-miami	#10  Posted on 07/12/14 - 5:38 PM
Member Personal Page Project Albums Posts: 315 Comments: 0 Joined: 11/05/08	Dave in an earlier reply you briefly brought up the trailer tire subject as it relates to GVWR and GAWR. I gave mine a second good look for their specifications. I think I am covered in the tire department, the info reads as follows; Make: Carlisle/Sport Trail Size: 5.30 - 12 Load Range: Tubless C Thread: 2 Plies Nylon Cord Max Load: 475 Kg (1050Lbs.) @ 550KPa (80psi) Cold I typically keep the air pressure at 36 psi...your thoughts. The hubs are 5 lug instead of the typical 4 as seen on light load boat trailers. This afternoon I had to remove the frame rail hangers for the leaf springs, discovered corrosion at the fastener and factory setup was done poorly. Since the spring mounting fasteners will be 1/2-13 x 3-1/2L stainless I will need to order the appropriate leaf spring "eye" nylon bushings. Typically the factory installed bushings are for 9/16 diameter hardware (for over-land application) and 1/2 diameter hardware in stainless is used in marine use. One other step I will include is placing a Nylon or Delrin type washer/spacer where the leaf spring "eye" has metal to metal contact. This will hopefully cancel out any future friction that the rear shackles generate along with the forward pivot points. Have coated the leaf springs with Zinc rich Galvanized paint as of this afternoon (I separated each of the 2 leaf assemblies and painted individually for better protection). I will place a barrier paper (#30 or less roofing felt between the 2 leafs when I re-assemble them) to reduce the metal to metal contact and hopefully allow fresh water to penetrate when washing off salt water. The spring hangers where isolated from the frame in a similar manner which I will redo when I reattach them. Still lots to do, will update when project is completed. Till then...Happy boating. Angel M. 1996 Dauntless 15, Sportsman Pkg. - 2007 Yamaha 90 HP 2-Stroke
wing15601	#11  Posted on 07/12/14 - 5:57 PM
Member Posts: 699 Comments: 0 Joined: 07/14/12	Low air pressure can cause the sidewall to heat up and blow the tire. Tires should be maintained close to their rated pressure. I winter in Ft. Myers and summer in St. Joseph, Michigan. It’s now about 12 years since I’ve joined this group. I gave my 1972 whaler to my daughter and sold the 17’. Bought an O’Day 28 sailboat and sailed on Lake Michigan. Yesterday I bought a 2005 130 Sport.
Dave Wheeler	#12  Posted on 07/12/14 - 6:01 PM
Member Posts: 31 Comments: 0 Joined: 01/07/08	I have run many various trailers for over 50 years and I have always run them at the maximum inflated tire pressure. I have never seen a situation where a trailer tire should be underinflated. Trailer tires have much stiffer sidewalls and should/must be fully inflated. Your tires capacity are rated at 80 psi. At 35 psi their carrying capacity would be much lower.
gchuba	#13  Posted on 07/12/14 - 10:43 PM
Member Posts: 1675 Comments: 0 Joined: 03/31/13	To me tire rating and pressure is critical. When going over truck scales the CHP (California Highway Patrol) looks at the tire ratings first thing before pulling you over. Proper weight of load to tire as you pass them is the best way to prevent a fix it ticket as well as scrutiny for axle/gvw trailer rating. The higher the ply rating, the beefier/stronger the tire. 2 plys is nothing. I run 8 ply for my mini trailer for odds and ends, riding lawn mowers, etc... You have the minimally rated tire for the hub. When you have a chance, upgrade to a better tire. Maximum air insures better wear but tougher ride for load. The higher the ply rating (load range), the the higher the maximum psi for the heavier capacity, you can run lower psi for softer ride. At 65psi max. rating, for softer ride, I may run at 50psi but no less. I can feel the trailer bounce if at max psi and under loaded. It comes down to weight of trailer and load with the maxed tire capacity. I am self editing because Dauntless does not have the minimally rated tire (my equipment trailers are at my yard but I looked at some spares this a.m.). I forgot that today's plys on the sidewall is "as built" and load rating is the old "ply" distinction. Load range C mid range. A and B light. I have bias tires as well as radial and know I cannot swap spares even if the size of tire is the same. Dauntless, your trailer/boat weight with your current tire set up is maxed out all the way around. Need to keep tire at max. psi. See if you can find a load range D and do some math for less psi. Garris Edited by gchuba on 07/13/14 - 7:48 AM
dauntless-n-miami	#14  Posted on 07/14/14 - 7:39 AM
Member Personal Page Project Albums Posts: 315 Comments: 0 Joined: 11/05/08	Thank you gentlemen for the input, it has been greatly appreciated. Hello gchuba please be patient with me, I'm still on a learning curve. Is the primary issue with my current tires the 2 ply construction? The max load rating at 80 psi is 1050 Lbs. (per tire) the over exaggerated/calculated gross weight I concluded for my boat is roughly 1669 Lbs., the combined capacity for the tires is 2100 Lbs.. There is a weight difference (+/-) of about 431 theoretical Lbs., please explain where the inherent failure is so I can better understand the tire relationship. I have already concluded and thanks to Wing's input that my GAWR is adequate now I need to understand the tire science and all will be well in my small universe. I will have to research a "D" rated tire for a 12" inch rim size. Unfortunately I cannot go with a 13" rim size, there is not sufficient/clearance under the trailer wheel fenders nor space to raise it. When I previously mentioned that the trailer was custom built it was regarding it's "over-all" width. From "bearing buddy to bearing buddy" the width measurement is the beam of the Dauntless which isn't much. This narrow width places the top of the fenders roughly about 1-1/2" inches below the outer edge of the hulls running surface. So for safe measure and until I source an appropriate replacement tire the proper tire pressure I should be using should be at the stated 80 psi??? This trailer repair has been an interesting education for me thanks to the help you all have offered. Best, Angel M. 1996 Dauntless 15, Sportsman Pkg. - 2007 Yamaha 90 HP 2-Stroke
tmann45	#15  Posted on 07/14/14 - 8:28 AM
Member Posts: 196 Comments: 0 Joined: 02/18/07	Angel, your tire load rating is fine, but your air pressure is seriously low and might have caused some damage depending on speed and distance towed.
gchuba	#16  Posted on 07/14/14 - 8:30 AM
Member Posts: 1675 Comments: 0 Joined: 03/31/13	Dauntless. The tire ratings are the combined weights of of all that they are holding. Best for you to weigh your boat and trailer combined. Say we round up your boats weight with gear to 1,700lb. That leaves 400lb. left over with the tires ratings, but you have to add in the weight of the trailer, axle,hubs, etc... to the equation. I would imagine your trailer is close to this number (maybe over). Tires at 80psi does not leave any "give" to the road and you bounced all over the place. I would guess you put in the 35psi to soften the tow. I feel bad for bringing up the ply "rating" posted on the tire because it is misleading. You have a 2 ply tire but, the "ply" rating system with your "C" load capacity gives you a "6 ply tire". A load range "D" tire has a 8 ply rating but might only say 4 ply on the side. Check around for tires with your rim size rated "D". It comes down to guesstimating with lower tire pressure vs. damage to sidewall. Radial trailer tires run a little smoother however they appear under inflated when looking at them, when all is OK. I do not know if there are charts available for psi vs. load vs. danger. If I was towing locally, and the tires did not look like a chipmunk cheeks, I would take some of the air out to take the edge off the bounce. I would not run them at 35psi, closer to 55psi and up. On site judgement. Garris If you find a radial trailer tire, check the distance between the inside of the tire to the outside of the trailer frame. I got some for one trailer but would rub when I bounced Edited by gchuba on 07/14/14 - 8:43 AM
dauntless-n-miami	#17  Posted on 07/14/14 - 10:23 AM
Member Personal Page Project Albums Posts: 315 Comments: 0 Joined: 11/05/08	Thanks once again gchuba for the explaination. I am beginning to understand why you suggest a "D" rated tire. Stronger or stiffer side wall: 1) will afford me much improved weight support for entire rig (boat and trailer) 2) I will not have a need to run the tire at Max psi to comply with load capacity which in turn will give me an opportunity to "adjust" the ride cushion for the hull (and yes no more 35 psi fill). Did I make sence above??? I will look into a trailer rated Radial tire as well if they exist for a 12" inch rim. I'm all for a better tire so please detail these weights once more for me. GVWR is the total weight of the trailer (mine is 1950 Lbs.) GAWR is the axels rating (mine is 1700 Lbs.) Current "C" rated tires are 1050 Lbs. each (combined total is 2100 Lbs.) at max psi of 80Lbs. Please be patient once more with me, so the tires weight capacity rating needs to tolerate the GVWR along with my theoretical boats weight of roughly 1669 Lbs.??? That a combined total weight of 3619 Lbs.. Did I just go off in a different tangent with this thought? Tmann45 thank you for your input, my tires are fine as far as thread wear goes. No visible damage that I can see or feel (no ply separation or side wall blisters). The trailer/boat combination has seen limited use since I bought it in 2008. The trailer was purchased by the previous owner in late 2006 and the Dauntless was kept in a FL. Keyes resort slip during the summer boating seasons with the previous owner. At home I keep the trailer supported so the tire are actually off the driveway at all times (added theft deterant). The boat and trailer sleep under a canopy/carport so they are kept from direct sun exposure as well (UV goes everywhere I know). When I complete the leaf spring repair I will increase my current tire's pressure to 70 psi (cold) and test, gchuba does thermal expansion factor in to Max psi when tire warms up??? Just currious... Thanks again for everyones input... Best, Angel M. Edited by dauntless-n-miami on 07/14/14 - 10:41 AM 1996 Dauntless 15, Sportsman Pkg. - 2007 Yamaha 90 HP 2-Stroke
gchuba	#18  Posted on 07/14/14 - 11:39 AM
Member Posts: 1675 Comments: 0 Joined: 03/31/13	Dauntless, The ratings for these carrying capacities are confusing. If your trailer has a GVWR of 1,950lb. and your trailer weighs 300lb. the pay load (carrying capacity) for the trailer is 1,650lbs. Your axle is at GAWR of 1,700lb. . So by the numbers, your trailer is under built with no tongue weight. 300lb. at the tongue brings you to 2000lb. total weight allowable for the trailer. Your current tires work. Too much tongue weight raises up the front of the tow vehicle and you have no road feel. See, very simple (right?) Your current trailer is built to the minimum capacities for weight ratings. I like to overkill so, I personally would have gone one step up all around if building new. However, your trailer will do just fine. You are just at your limits for capacity but, I have seen "rated trailers" and think "you gottah be kidding me" and seeing the same rated trailer built elsewhere and think "that is one nice trailer". No putting down plywood with sides and going to the quarry for a yard of gravel. You need to know actual weight of trailer with boat fully loaded. The higher the road rating for tires you can fit, the more under deflated you can go for psi pressure to prevent bouncing around. I generally keep my trailer tires psi at 70% (plus or minus) but fill them up to maximum psi when loading to capacity. I would need to see the actual trailer to pass judgement. Garris Edit: I do not know but I believe psi is a constant. You have a 50lb. rated tire with 25psi air in it and then load it to the max so it looks ready to explode, drive up to a air pump to pump it up, still reads 25lb. psi. Edited by gchuba on 07/14/14 - 11:47 AM
dauntless-n-miami	#19  Posted on 07/14/14 - 12:48 PM
Member Personal Page Project Albums Posts: 315 Comments: 0 Joined: 11/05/08	I'm with you on "over-kill" when possible. I wish it would have been me who requested the trailer originally, we may not have had these interesting discussions. I don't have a weight station in my general area, will need to do a web search for one. I will first weigh tow vehicle with trailer/boat in tow, detach and weigh tow vehicle for its weight and subtract from grand total. I will check with friends in the automotive field for a portable floor scale to verify actual tongue weight. The GAWR plus the tongue weight should closely match the GVWR correct as Dave Wheeler explaination early in the thread? Alright then I've frustrated you guy's enough with my inquiries, thanks yet again to all for the great help and patience. I'll get this darn trailer right or as close to it as I can...funny how we sometimes take our trailers for granted until something goes wrong and then it's "Pandora's Box" with the discoveries. At least in my case... Best, Angel M. 1996 Dauntless 15, Sportsman Pkg. - 2007 Yamaha 90 HP 2-Stroke
gchuba	#20  Posted on 07/14/14 - 1:02 PM
Member Posts: 1675 Comments: 0 Joined: 03/31/13	Any landscape supply should have a scale. Tongue weight is how you load the boat and not an exact science. When the trailer is detached from the boat, try to physically lift the tongue (do not hurt yourself). If it lifts easily move weight inside the boat forward so difficult to lift. If too heavy for you to lift and does not affect the front axle of the tow vehicle, and you can manage it, leave it alone (do need to make sure it matches specs of hitch. I prefer kinda be able to lift weight. Garris