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First of all, if anyone has either of these installed on a Montauk, where's your waterline at transom, relative to splash-well drains, while at rest [with nobody on board]?
This Super-Tauk will be in a slip year round and hope to keep bottom of motor brackets out of water. Maybe the weight differences between the Suzuki and Yamaha is a wash, and both brackets will end up partially immersed anyway, in that case comment on cost/performance of either motor based on the above, or the differences noted below.
Background:
Boat is a 1987 SuperSport converted to a Montauk type layout, except for non-stock console [2 grp 24 batts inside] and seat, 12 gal poly tank under lean post seat.
For fishing purposes [SoCal coastal, inshore], will have an 8-10 gal bait tank in stern.
Currently have a tired 1987 40hp Yamaha [+/- 150lbs] to replace for a bit more power/speed, but to lightest weight available 4 stroke; so far a Suzuki DF60= 229, or Yamaha F60= 247.
Weight considerations, [may be a draw]:
While in slip, keep the bottom of the motor bracket as high as possible out of the water.
More transom draft while fishing [when standing aft to land fish, or whatever]. Keeping as much of the ocean out as possible, despite a good bilge pump[s].
On the surface, Suzuki DF60 has advantages over the Yamaha F60:
If I sign to buy on 3/31, extra 3 yrs warr. for total 6.
Lighter by almost 20 lbs
Timing chain vs belt
Suzuki 2.27:1 vs Yamaha 1.85:1 gear
Yamaha Advantages:
If I sign to buy on 3/31, $400 rebate or extra 2 yrs warr.
Other comps:
Suzuki 19 amps alternator, Yamaha 17 amp alternator
Suzuki range = 5300-6300, Yamaha range = 5000-6000
Both are equal displacement, but Suzuki is a 4 valve DOHC, while Yamaha is a SOHC, 2 valve.
Costs: Either engine, prop, analog gauge, basic harness will run me $8100 Yamaha, or $8400 Suzuki, installed.
Other: Yamaha installation/accessories: Recycle the binnacle control and Key/Kill switch, saving about 600, but I'm almost sure the steering rod, drag link and its engine boss mount will not interchange; if so, add $400.
Suzuki installation/accessories: would be all new control, switch, steering, etc. and the $8400 price doesn't include steering rod & drag link, so likely add $400.
Accounting for the above, which of the two would you re-power with?
Thanks for your insights.
Joe
(moderator note: please follow guideline #1 on the front page and use the full 4 digit year for everything)
I recently repowered my 1986 Montauk with a Yamaha F70 and matching F6 kicker. This replaced a 300+ lbs Mercury 90 2-stroke tower of power. I also have a 45lbs jackplate. With the old motor the splash well drain where below the waterline empty by about an inch. With the new motor the waterline is right at the bottom of the drains leaving the splashwell empty while the boat is empty.
I am extremely pleased with the Yamaha. The performance is great getting 38 mph and the lighter weight made more of a difference than I thought in the way the boat sits and handles. The hole shot actually seems better than my old 90 tower of power. This could be related to a better prop and lighter weight, but the torque seems excellent compared to the two-stroke, which I was not expecting.
I would imagine with no kicker, jackplate, and slightly lighter 60hp you would be high and dry. Although I would highly recommend a hard look at the F70 seeing as it's only a few pounds heavier than the F60. Same block, but 4 valves per cylinder instead of 2 among other minor differences.
(moderator note: please follow guideline #1 on the front page and use the full 4 digit year for everything)
A quick note about the extended warranties. My understanding is the Suzuki is through a third party and not fully transferable. The Yamaha Y.E.S. is through Yamaha and fully transferable. I got the free 2 year extended and paid $240 for an extra year for a total of 6. The dealer support is better in my area for Yamaha and they have a better service reputation than Suzuki. This swayed my decision to the Yamaha from a Suzuki 90 along with the light weight of the 70.
J & Joe- thanks for the opinions and the observations.
Agreed, the Yamaha looks like the better choice; the idea of the F70 is also appealing.
I'll ask the difference in upgrade tomorrow when I meet the dealer for an appt.
I went in on Sat. afternoon, but except for Parts service, Sales were all gone to the Fred Hall F&B show. I didn't want to swim thru a few thousand bodies to have serious discussions about such a big purchase.
Instead I got an itemized price on the F60 over the phone and email from the sales manager.
During my visit to this Yamaha dealer Sat., I noticed the parts and service bays are clean and organized. The office and showroom floor is also well kept, not fancy, but organized like someone cares. A good sign.
I'll post up what turns out after tomorrow-
Thanks,
Joe
Like jharrell I replaced a 75 2 stroke mercury and a 9.9 2 stroke mercury kicker this year. I went with a Yamaha F70LA and a 6 hp Tohatsu Sail Pro on my 1999 Alert. Weight, like you was a major concern. For the minimal weight difference between the F60 and the F70 you get 10 more horsepower, a heavier lower unit [ 2.33 x 1 on the F70 as opposed to a 1.85 x 1 on the F60], a 4 valve SOHC engine with the F70. The heavier lower unit would be a plus on your boat. I also think the F70 gets slightly better gas mileage than the F60. Good luck on your choice. Al
OK. Bought the Yamaha F70 last week and am now running an add for the 40hp Yam hanging out there now. The F70 install is scheduled for next week. Which is OK, since I haven't completed my install of entire new electrical system yet.
The deal was done before the 3/31 deadline to get the $400 discount, which sort of left a bad taste in my mouth on said deal.
Let me articulate.
The total for the motor [7500], analog tach, prop, main harness [360], install [570]and tax [640] was 8800. That factored in the -400 Yam promo; all good.
Well, I decided to pay for 1/2 on my Visa, to get 1% back from them, and then clear the balance 2-3 months down the road, not because I couldn't cash it all out at once, but because if anything were to go bust on the install, motor, accessory etc, I wanted to have some leverage, like Visa to back me. Not that I don't think Yam is a good product or that the dealer is shady, but if for any problems that end up going into small claims. In the end, Visa might not even be agree-able to it, but it may be the only out I would have as a consumer.
So, long story longer, when it came time to pay, the dealer said they had to add a 3% surcharge on the deal to cover the Visa charge.
So, there went 132 of the -400 Yam promo, but since I get back 44 from Visa [1%], it turns out to be a -$312 Yam promo...
BTW, I don't believe the dealer is actually paying 3%...
Whatever.
I'm thankful I get to 'suffer' thru these kinds of problems.
I think your Yamaha Dealer saw you coming, big time!
I often find it amazing how brand loyalty to Yamaha or Evinrude, and general overall dislike of Mercury outboards by classic Whaler owners, can be so costly, especially when the powerheads of the both brand engines is IDENTICAL in the 50 and 60 HP 4-stroke versions. After all, Boston Whaler probably ships out 500 new boats rigged with this engine every year, and we hear of literally ZERO problems with them. I also find it amazing that Yamaha has discovered such a money machine by the 10 extra HP of the 70, which on a Montauk type hull is probably only worth 1 or 2 MPH top end, completely negligible.
A large Mercury dealer, based in Tennessee, ships Mercury's all over the country, no sales tax. His price on a 60 HP EFI 4-stroke is $5607, less the same $400 rebate up until MAY 31st. Shipping cost is about $200 max. Here is the website pricing, and I have ABSOLUTLEY NO relationship with them, except for purchase experience of a Merc outboard and some Merc props. I am only posting this for informational purposes and brand pricing comparisons.
Bolting on a 250# outboard is relatively easy, with a rental engine hoist for about $30/day. Or have a generic marine shop receive the engine shipment and bolt it on for you for a couple of hundred bucks.
If this was my Montauk, I would have been able to install a new Merc 60 for about $5500, plus another $500 for new control box, ignition harness and cables. Three Grand is a lot of money for 10 HP.
Fin- I did this homework upfront before deciding on the Yamaha, and contrary to your assertions, I seriously doubt any authorized dealer of Mercury or any other builder, allows a customer install. It's just in the nature of how they protect themselves from warranty claims.
I agree w/you on how this can be done, but even if you could, I doubt you will get an authorized Mercury service center to sign off for your warranty to be in effect [you're taking food off their table].
As for price/model issues, yes I could have purchased the Merc 60 ELPT, but with prop, harness, tach, etc, I was at only 500 less than the F70. I concede though that with the F70, I recycled my binnacle control & ignition switch.
The way I sorted it out was that the extra 10hp of the F70 for only 6 lbs more tramsom weight was worth it. Regardless of 1-2 mph more speed, which to me is an assertion that will never actually be proved; the extra 10hp may translate at hole shot, fuel efficiency, or longevity. But that will likely not ever be proved either and it certainly wouldn't be a deal breaker for me, since my decision was based on primarily 3 things:
I know Yamaha better than others [this is #3], I had recyclable parts and the dealers record [30 yrs].
So, in the end, I may have been $500 ahead with Merc, but with 10hp less and no experience w/them at all. With all due respect however, it's not my purpose here to claim that your opinions expressed are based on questionable facts and logic, just that my assessment didn't make Merc a better choice for me overall.
This thread started as a decision between 60hp Suzuki or Yamaha, then migrated to Yam F60 or F70, then my comments on how my $400 rebate ended up at only 312, so now we're going full circle to discuss a Merc candidate? we're waay off course...
You will be very happy with F70. My dealer is a Mercury guy and he recommended the F70 over the Merc 60, mentioning resale value among other things.
I consistently get 38mph out of the F70, I don't believe I have seen any reports of the Merc 60 getting more than 34-35 mph on a Montauk. Is that worth $2000? Personal decision, I have seen people spend way more money than that for less gains. What about hole-shot and load carrying? Those extra valves don't simply allow more RPM. What about dealer support? What about resale?
My costs were similar to yours, and it was some of the best money I have spent in a long time, it is an excellent motor for a classic Montauk. Comparing a loose motor to a fully rigged one is not fair, of course doing anything yourself will be cheaper, is that a surprise to anyone? I don't have a problem giving my dealer a paycheck so long as they give me the service I expect.
I know Whaler owners who have bought brand-new crated Mercury, Yamaha, Evinrude and Suzuki outboards and done the rigging themselves. It is not that big a deal.
There is usually a requirement for a dealer "pre-delivery inspection" for warranty registration, but there is no requirement that the selling dealer be the dealer to perform that.
Tom, I don't doubt the that the purchaser installs occur, nor that it wouldn't be a significant cost saving for the boater, but speaking directly with the earlier referenced Merc dealer in Tennessee, they state that while purchaser installs are possible, its not very common for the simple reason that the required inspection is 'post customer install'. Moreover, there's a fee for the inspection, albeit not as much as for full rigging. The sales rep from that dealer also made it implicit that If your install doesn't comply with their install requirements, you won't get the warranty. As well, the motor will only ship to a dealer or an authorized service agent. If true, this would be the point where a "pre-delivery inspection" you refer to might occur.
That somewhat confirms how the system is designed by the builders to protect them, and the dealers.
I bought a Yamaha 15hp 2S for a RIB tender about 10 yrs ago, and in order to initiate full warranty, after picking it up at a local shipping hub, before I installed it, I had to deliver it to an authorized service agent to initiate warranty. BTW: I bought that motor from a dealer in N. Carolina, on line b/c I couldn't buy a 2S in Cali, and the purchase had to be made by a CC whose owner is not residing in Cali or any other state that prohibits their sale. That's a whole other story though.
You probably have noticed recently [within the last 8 yrs or so], whether its a Toyota, Honda, Nissan or even Yamaha, Mercury- product pricing has become standardized or uniform, within a product line so that whether you're in Texas, Florida or New Hampshire, the invoice and dealer prep are all about the same.
Beyond that the only differences that might be noticed by the consumer are small and usually volume sales discounts, usually less than 1%, for some dealers who reach a certain quarterly or yearly quota.
Before purchase, when I researched the 2014 Yam F70, I found the that bottom line for 4 different dealers in So Cal, in two different counties [Orange and San Diego], were all within $150, or less, of each other. The differences likely due to the local sales tax rate or the VISA CC back-charge [eg: Within the City of Vista, CA where one Yam dealer operates, the sales tax rate is 8.5%; in the City of San Diego it's 8%. Maurer Marine in Costa Mesa cited a 1.75% Visa/MC CC fee back=charge].
Other than that, I don't think its that big a deal either, except for the full warranty part.
Joe
The pre-delivery inspection happens *after* the boat owner has rigged the new motor and then taken it to a dealer for this inspection. Yes, there is a labor fee, an hour or two perhaps. Yes, some dealers may try to discourage you or say that it is impossible, but it is not.
I have one friend who is rigging a new Mercury 150 FourStroke himself that he bought out-of-state.
He told me he saved about $3,000 between the discounted price, the sales tax savings and the rigging labor costs when compared to his local Mercury dealer.
Do not underestimate the labor involved with rigging a new modern outboard motor. It is substantial amount of work, especially if you are installing new controls and gauges. But for those who enjoy this type of work, it can be rewarding, including financially.
Once again, agreed that the work is both possible and substantial [exactly why I don't want to do it], and the savings, especially on a large motor, quite substantial. Never have claimed otherwise.
In this case, I might have saved about $580 on self install and possibly another 640 on state sales tax [dubious on that one since someone always pays state or fed tax along the way], but then factor in shipping of at least 200-300, *Pre-Delivery Inspection* of another 150 and we've maybe $700 saved.
However,in my case, and likely 95% of the market, given the nature of a $7000+ expenditure on a relatively non-life essential [ie: personal vehicle, home, etc] purchase of the basic item, obviously I think the $580 install fee is in line with what people who provide professional services charge. I think it's a relatively small price for the assurance that the operation is executed to the manufacturers satisfaction.
Alternately, it's interesting that in direct conversations with a couple of local Merc dealers in San Diego, they wouldn't sell w/out the install service, and I had to find a 'Tennesee' dealer, via this website, for one that *almost* would.
Seems a long reach to go that far out of the way to find these customer direct motors, with no or reduced sales tax, flat rate shipping, etc., and in the end still risk a warranty claim denied if the manufacturer insists your self-install falls short of their own "best practice" standards, regardless of what a *Pre-delivery inspection* may cite. Although, I guess there always legal recourse, if it comes to that.
Ultimately, I don't want to be an outboard installer and I'm certainly glad that by law, my profession cannot be performed by just anyone who wants to save money and have a rewarding experience.
My hands restored this 27 year old hull and had enough of a reward managing it's dismantling, resurfacing, re-rigging of all except the outboard.
Oh, and once again, this thread is proceeding along a distant tangent to the original title. In the interest of not mis-leading the readers any further, shouldn't the ed terminate or rename it?
Hey, I almost forgot, I've got an outboard to prep for...
I do not think the subject matter of this thread took too much of a turn to rename. The minute it was mentioned that the Suzuki motors warranty was not transferable, the merits of the motor vs motor were dropped and economics/resale entered. I have done my own rigging for my E-tec. Warranty's aside, on occasion I have seen some shoddy work from "qualified dealerships". Where is the warranty if a qualified shops work was done wrong (as determined by another qualified shop)? Anyway, in addition to financial savings for self installation, you know exactly where the splices and wiring are. The motor harnesses come at a predetermined length. If too short you better know where the extension union is if a failure occurs (hopefully in an accessible area). Splicing voids all warranties as I understand it. I also like knowing exactly where all the motor linkage/wiring is.
gchuba
I think the choice of the F70 for this application is an excellent one. Not only is it an extra 10 HP compared to the F60, you also get an intermediate size gearcase (4.25) vs. a small gearcase (3.5) and a lower 2.33:1 gear ratio.
Actually, for anybody who wants a Yamaha 60 on this hull, they ought to choose the T60 which includes the intermediate size gearcase and lower gear ratio. It' a better fit for the 16'-7" hulls
As to the question of installing yourself, I certainly am not criticizing your choice of buying from a local dealer, indeed I commend you for that.
I did not introduce the discussion of saving money by buying out of state, Larry did, but for those reading this now, or in the future while researching a motor buying decision, I want it to be understood that it can, and is, done all the time with the potential for very real savings, sales tax chief among them (sales tax is a state tax, not federal. The feds, in this case, have nothing to do with the transaction.)
"I do not think the subject matter of this thread took too much of a turn to rename. The minute it was mentioned that the Suzuki motors warranty was not transferable, the merits of the motor vs motor were dropped and economics/resale entered."
In my case, the nature of warranty was never pivotal; economics/resale were tertiary, if that high.
"I did not introduce the discussion of saving money by buying out of state, Larry did,.but for those reading this now, or in the future while researching a motor buying decision, I want it to be understood that it can, and is, done all the time.."
Direct or incidental relevance to the title is a matter of perspective.
For anyone navigating to this link for resolution or specific info on
"1987 Super-tauk repower: Suzuki DF60 or Yamaha F60",
that was essentially answered for the OP by the fifth reply.
Therefore, the suggestion for a follow up thread would be more pertinent.
Maybe,
Repower: Dealer Install vs. Self Install,
or
Outboard Economics 101
PS.: Within the above suggested discussions, if it could be ascertained, what's the legitimate stat on the % of owner installed motors, excluding below a certain hp, such as portables.
