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Hi ,You Whaler fanatics !
Found & joined this site today. Seems like a great bunch of people ----with a great common interest. That said, I've been a boat owner/user for 50yrs. I've owned many & they all had the "right names" Whaler,seacraft,robalo,pursuit etc. I have learned & observed alot. One of the major things I have observed is how pathetic most of our boat builders are! WE are the guinea pigs for all of their mistakes. Unlike the auto industry we have no recourse. If there was ever an industry that needed a lemon law, this is it! The 100's of boat builders would be diminished by at least 75%.
FYI ---- in the early 70's when the mastermind's in our government decided to outlaw leaded fuel they forgot to check on the ramifications. Burned out exhaust valve seats cost this country billions. currently the use of ethanol will cost us even more! Ironically, destroying our fuel systems in our boats & cars is basically a joke being that the reduced mileage only requires more refueling----isn't that special?
In conclusion, regarding foam saturation, which I have witnessed !st hand in many of the " GOOD" named boats I have owned, I would like to pose these questions & facts.
1. Foam flotation was a federal requirement
2. Foam absorbs water eventually
3. Foam will eventually becme a boaters liability
4. A foam saturated boat will sink like a rock
5. Foam is rated on a scale of 1 to 16---16 will NOT absorb water! Hmmmmm!
6. Of course, the higher the # the higher the cost
7. Have we been let down by our gov't & boat builders? YOU BET!!!
Not only do I feel the government & boat builders are responsible for this situation & any calamities resulting from it, but the solution to correct this water saturation dilemna is their responsibility. along with the people who make this foam.
To date I have owned 1/2 a dozen Whalers---one being a 1963 I've owned for34 yrs. Presently I am working on my son's 1986 outrage 18'. Guess what! Foam saturation! 2 to 3 inch rear squat. If you own one ----observe that Whaler designed the hull so that the fuel hose & vent hose channel directly into the fuel tank compartment. Also the fuel feed is also open to the tank compartment. During every rainstorm, bilge pump failure, or water blockage of the drain tube during winter storage---water enters & eventually saturates the foam. I have seen many Whalers with the same problem, same squat! Sadly, this saturation problem exists in all the boats I've mentioned & all the ones I haven't. WE really need a boat rep. akin to RALPH NADER. Hope I haven't bored you or wasted your time.
p.s. In there efforts to supposedly to protect us our elected officials have put us in jeopardy once again! ----MTBE ring a bell?
Welcome to Whaler Central. It is always a pleasure to hear from a fellow Whaler aficionado and a life long boater.
It would seem you have a bit of an axe to grind. For the sake of balance let me point out that we have discussed saturated foam almost ad nauseam both here and at ContinuousWave.com over the last several years. I have personally done quite a bit of research on the subject and I can straighten out a few of your misconceptions above.
1. Positive flotation was (and still is) a federal requirement for boats less than 20 feet on length, and for good reason. Flotation does NOT have to take the form of foam, however.
2. Foam *can* absorb water eventually. It depends on the foam and the environment it exists in.
3. Foam *may* eventually become a boater's liability. Whalers are especially prone to wet foam because foam is such an integral part of their construction.
4. A foam saturated boat will certainly NOT sink like a rock. I challenge to to give even one example of a foam saturated boat sinking "like a rock". No Whaler I have ever seen or heard of has ever sank like a rock, or even simply sank.
5. Foam takes many forms and is quantified and qualified in many different ways but is not rated on any simplistic scale like 1 to 16.
6. Better product usually costs more, no mystery there. Whalers themselves are good examples of this phenomena.
7. Boat builders and governments are comprised of groups of real people doing the best they can do. Some do better than others.
Whalers Rock!
Not sink like a rock!
And in my opinion the only way foam absorbs or saturates a boat is poor maintanence of a boat.
Like anything, If you dont use ity you lose it.
I have worried about my foam untill I nearly puked.
When finally I realized through this great site to weigh the boat.
After weighing the boat and knowing mind you the weight of the engine and the trailer. My boat might weigh an additional 200 pounds and that is a maybe. So I am convined that it is not a big problem or worry.
I worry more about my next available day to fish now.
Blake Sanborn
18 Outrage
Mt.Pleasant SC
not trying to make this a political arena but, we should just take a bull dozer to EVERYONE in Washington (all party's)... it's getting quite nauseating to say the least (all party's), let's revolt and make a "NEW WHALER ORDER", hey, we could'nt be ANY worse than the politicians !
Quite a surprising first post. Most of the people will with hold such strong opinions till later posts. While everyone is open to their opinions let focus on Whalers and boating..Politics should be left at the dock.
I guess I am at a loss for what you are really looking for?
I've owned many & they all had the "right names" Whaler,seacraft,robalo,pursuit etc. I have learned & observed alot. One of the major things I have observed is how pathetic most of our boat builders are! WE are the guinea pigs for all of their mistakes. Unlike the auto industry we have no recourse. If there was ever an industry that needed a lemon law, this is it! The 100's of boat builders would be diminished by at least 75%.
All of the boats you list as owning are great boats and I know owners who have or still own those boats. Most of the hulls are 20+ years old and still going strong and yes some of them have done lite to extensive work to them to keep them going. Show me a car or anything that is 20+ years old and used on a regular basis that does not need up keep and has it's issues.
BTW a lemon law would not cover hulls of this vintage any way. The longest period of time most states allow for Car Lemons laws is 3 years from the time of NEW purchase. Most cars are still under warranty at that time. Also in most states Boats will fall under the same guidelines as an Automobile.
1. Foam flotation was a federal requirement
2. Foam absorbs water eventually
3. Foam will eventually becme a boaters liability
4. A foam saturated boat will sink like a rock
5. Foam is rated on a scale of 1 to 16---16 will NOT absorb water! Hmmmmm!
6. Of course, the higher the # the higher the cost
7. Have we been let down by our gov't & boat builders? YOU BET!!!
Tom is right on with his remarks above. In fact if there is anyone on the planet who knows more, investigated more, invested more, and tested more more than Tom when it comes to water in foam with whalers I would love them to come forward.
Also for the record absorbing and suspending water are two different things. The types of foam used in older whalers and other boats will not wick (absorb) water however, through osmotic pressure it can be forced into open cells and thus becoming suspended. I have many types of foam I have worked with and there are A LOT of foams that do not absorb water. I have even worked with an Aluminum Foam and you know what? It does not absorb water but it will suspend water in a compromised area.
Not only do I feel the government & boat builders are responsible for this situation & any calamities resulting from it, but the solution to correct this water saturation dilemna is their responsibility. along with the people who make this foam.
To date I have owned 1/2 a dozen Whalers---one being a 1963 I've owned for34 yrs. Presently I am working on my son's 1986 outrage 18'. Guess what! Foam saturation! 2 to 3 inch rear squat. If you own one ----observe that Whaler designed the hull so that the fuel hose & vent hose channel directly into the fuel tank compartment. Also the fuel feed is also open to the tank compartment. During every rainstorm, bilge pump failure, or water blockage of the drain tube during winter storage---water enters & eventually saturates the foam. I have seen many Whalers with the same problem, same squat! Sadly, this saturation problem exists in all the boats I've mentioned & all the ones I haven't. WE really need a boat rep. akin to RALPH NADER. Hope I haven't bored you or wasted your time.
Well did your son buy the boat heavily saturated or have you owned it over the years and it has become water logged? If you bought the boat and did not inspect it properly well, buyer beware. Outside of weighing the hull floating it before pruchase is the best way to gauge how much if any water is in the hull.
Anyway I when I rebuilt my floor in my whaler after I bought it I found there were a lot of areas where poor glass work had led to the floor becoming rotten. Also, there were a lot of areas where I had to wonder why was it designed like that? But, I never thought I need another layer of bureaucracy in a WATCH DOG to go after whaler for the flaws I found in my boat. I bought the boat knowing there was work to be done and fully excepting it. And you after I did the work on my hull I felt that I had much more pride in the boat.
If you are that pissed off about what you perceive as poor quality, build issues, and poor design either build your own boat, buy a new one that is built to your standards, or get out of boating. I look at the restoration and rebuilding of these boats as one of the JOYS of owning such a boat. If you go to Classicmako.com or Classicseacraft.com you will find a lot more people who obviously feel the same as some of their projects put us whaler guys to shame.
I would be willing to bet as the current line of 2007 boats reach into their 20's they should have less issues than the boats that were built in the 80's and 90's. However, I am not going waiting till then. I am happy with the old, poorly designed, and built WHALER I have.
Edited by Jeff on 06/28/07 - 8:06 PM
1993 23' Walkaround Whaler Drive
Bob Zack wrote:
To date I have owned 1/2 a dozen Whalers---one being a 1963 I've owned for34 yrs. Presently I am working on my son's 1986 outrage 18'. Guess what! Foam saturation! 2 to 3 inch rear squat. If you own one ----observe that Whaler designed the hull so that the fuel hose & vent hose channel directly into the fuel tank compartment. Also the fuel feed is also open to the tank compartment. During every rainstorm, bilge pump failure, or water blockage of the drain tube during winter storage---water enters & eventually saturates the foam. I have seen many Whalers with the same problem, same squat! Sadly, this saturation problem exists in all the boats I've mentioned & all the ones I haven't. WE really need a boat rep. akin to RALPH NADER. Hope I haven't bored you or wasted your time.
p.s. In there efforts to supposedly to protect us our elected officials have put us in jeopardy once again! ----MTBE ring a bell?
Wow, I would say that is quite a speech, Since you have owned 6 whalers all with the same issues, why do you keep buying them and why for god sakes do you let your son have one? Some things to note,
1. Since your already working on the 86 Outrage, I suggest you remove the tank cover and review the gelcoat in the rigging tunnel and under the deck. There have been cases of cracked gelcoat that could allow water access to the foam, any that should be fixed.
2. Provided you don't discover gelcoat issues once you finish #1, you should know that water sitting around the tank will not automatically let water into the foam. The tank cavity is made of gelcoat and the tank is foamed in, only to hold it and add some more flotation.
3. Since your concerned about ethanal, don't forget to change both the fuel and vent hoses if they have not already been done, since 1986 hoses are not alcohol resistant.
4. rear squat can be caused by other things other than water, how heavy is the engine, how many do you have, main plus kicker. How about batteries, single or duel and possibly an oil tank. How about that main engine, 2 stroke or 4?
Bob Zack wrote:
..currently the use of ethanol will cost us even more! Ironically, destroying our fuel systems in our boats & cars
Hi Bob.
I know it is sometimes hard for those on the East Coast to remember that there is anything or anyone in that part of the country between the Potomac (or Hudson) and California, but we are here.
Many of us have also been using gasoline that is 10% ethanol for over a decade - not by choice, but because that is what is sold here.
Guess what... get ready... our cars and boats still work just fine. When you consider that they are doing this with destroyed fuel systems, this makes it even more amazing.
And don't get me started about old gas, either. I took my 22 Outrage for a spin last night, using the tank of gas that has been sitting it it since Labor Day of last year. Guess what. Started on the second turn of the key, and ran perfect all night.
Neigh on to a miracle if you believe any of the negative hype folks spout off about ethanol.
Bob, I too welcome you to WC. I'm fairly new here too. Bought a pretty "wet" Whaler because I fell in love. Now I'm living with my choice, and it's not too bad. My '69 16/17 footer is a classic along the lines of the '65 mustang, and when I'm done with it, I'll probably be on the lookout for a 13 and an 18 or 22. Going to try to buy a drier one next time! Grew up on Long Island, where you live, and lived for a while in Orient, and in Hampton Bays, not far from you. Whalers were part and parcel of the Long Island life--- north shore and south shore.
Glad you're here. Keep posting. Lots of helpful folks around here!
I'm in the same boat as Dan with the wet hull, but I have to admit I'm really attached to this boat now regardless. The first time she hits the water after all the repairs, I don't think it's going to matter too much as my excitement is going to overshadow pretty much everything else. And I love the analogy to the classic Mustang, well said Dan!
Today....
After 44 years....I had to REMOVE the mahogany bench from it's perch behind the console on my '63 Nauset.....The right cleat had split and the left upper handle had broken as well!
I was "Outraged".........
How could this have happened?......
Could thave been from the many trips with 7 people from Exeter, NH to Kitterey, ME for lobster feasts and back? Fishing trips to The Isles of Shoals loaded with "tinker" mackerel?....How about 15 years of water skiing lessons for 25 kids on Lake Winnipausaukee,NH.... out on "The Broads"...off Governor's Island?....
No....that wasn't it.....
Maybe it was the trips to Moosehead Lake, ME where she got repeatedly filled with water and we had to drive her at speed to drain the water by "pullin' the plug'....that was before fully automatic bilge pumps.......
Naah....couldn't be that.......
Perhaps it was all the Blues and Striper fishing out of the Westport River, MA....rollin' around off The Nubble... trolling.....it can get feisty real quick....my Dad used to specialize in gettin' us all sprayed from that hull slappin' the water like that...but that was before motor tilit/trim........
Ah Hah!...It must of happened when my folks founded The Westport River Watershed Alliance and had to take water samples every few days to ensure the water quality for the reintroduced Osprey and Scallop populations after they stopped the dumping of collophorms (cow shit) into the river.....
...Those Scallops are tasty....and the Osprey love "em!......but it must have played Hell with that woodwork havin' my Dad's little Boykin Spaniel, "Annie".... sittin' up on that console , telling him that he couldn't hear the new 4 stroke and he should shut it off BEFORE he pulled it out of the water....! But he refused to turn on that hearing aid!!!!So I had to replace the impeller after he left us.......
Nope....coudna' been that......
Maybe it was the 5 motors that have been on "Grin and Bear It'....the current Suzuki 60 hp4 stroke eats 12 GALLONS OF GAS EVERY WEEK....if I use her every day.....shameful......
Coulda' been movin' her to The Mighty Hudson ...now in fresh water....where my wife just caught her first "3# Bronzeback for the season...and we are using her to restore an antique Lighthouse ...The Maid Of The Meadows....for the rest of the season.....
I would like to try waterskiing again this year....despite my hernia....and am considering traileirng her to Rockland, ME next year, for a 2 week foray 23 miles offshore to Matinicus Island, ME....weather permittin'.......
I've no worry's about the boat....a little concerned about the "85 trailer....we'll see.....
So there I am...
pulled the stainless screws....scraped the ancient gook off and patched all the deck holes with Marine -Tex epoxy...glued and clamped and reattached the cleats and handles and promised myself that they WOULD be revarnished...by next season!!!!!
The floor in that spot was a tad soft and I couldn't help but notice some ancient cracks....and there seems to be a new nick up by the Norman Pin.....
Then Lucy showed up and we cleaned...........and sure enough....there is still sand from NH showing up down below.....no matter how hard we scrub....
And I'm thinkin'...how could anyone have put together a boat like this.... that would have FAILED like this..... after 44 years??????
It must be some global LEFTWINGCONSPIRACY!.....
So I put the bench back in.... and we towed some guy and his family back to their slip after his motor crapped out,.... and I caught a fish up by the Old Barge on the left...we cruised out to the River which was like glass....and went for a 35 MPH spin up to the Rhinecliff Bridge and back....
And that was Today......
And the Moral of The Story Is.....
....In the Immortal Words of Bill Murray...in the movie 'Stripes"......
"...lighten up,.. Francis....."
Yup!....that musta been what did that bench in!......
Bob...if you can recommend a better boat...let us know!
I am laughing my ass off.... Very Good All I will add to the foam thing, is if one goes a marina here in the North East, most will find flotation under the docks, as they need to need to be removed for the winter, also most are foam... I have never seen a dock sunk with foam flotation. It is also probably of a much lower quality of the one used in our whalers.
One story I recall reading few years ago (I wish I could find it) was about a yacht (really big 100 ft+) that went under some were in in another continent. One of the tenders used was an 18 Ft Dauntless I believe. 2 Years later after floating around world the battered carcass of the Dauntless made landfall still floating...
i've not done any extensive research on whaler foam and its particular qualities but after taking some deck off my 1968 16' currituck i found it can harbor water for whatever reason. however after putting new foam in my water line is 2" maye 3" lower than before. so if you are dealing with soggy foam for whatever the reason, and you have the ability to remove it and seal up any holes do it and you maybe be as happy as me!
"A new project idea is stirring in my mind. I think it is high time we get to the bottom of several well worn arguments regarding Boston Whalers and related items, especially whether or not the foam absorbs water.
We all know that a Whaler hull can get water into the hull over time, especially if there are unprotected penetrations in the hull. But does the foam itself actually absorb water? Precisely where in the hull is the water in a waterlogged Whaler? How much water can a hull hold?
Few people are willing to cut their Whalers in half to find out but I plan on doing just this. Thanks to Dave Risney I will be acquiring an old 13a33; Whaler which I propose to use as an official ContinuousWave test hull. I am looking for ideas from all of you about what to test for and how to test for it.
The scientific method should be adhered to for the sake of maximizing the B.S. elimination from the results. This will be a long term test, perhaps covering a year or more."
As the posting and testing progresses, there are absolute GEMS that arise, as well as foibles and blind alleys. The thread is called "Chain Saw Whaler" and it becomes an acronym, CSW. Wonderful terminology: "crisp wet apple" to describe the foam (perfect, according to my experience!). Here's a 13' boat that had what I think Tom calculated had over 800 lb of water in it! There's a quote from Tom's boyhood. His teacher had been some kind of diver, and told the class (I "quote" from memory) "They say that Boston Whalers can't be sunk. It isn't so. I've seen them at the bottom of the lake."
The technical dept. of BW even caught wind of the experiment, and asked Tom to send them a hunk of the beast (he sent them 60 lbs.) Other great moments include Tom's "core sampling" from skin to skin with a hole saw, and drying the sample in his toaster oven, weighing the sample from time to time. ASTONISHING amount of water in that foam!
Another fascinating document that if I recall correctly, Tom also uncovered is posted on the site... the original patent for the foam uni-hull process, including the shear plugs that I discovered myself when doing my own Whaler appendectomy.
Jeff posted on another thread another great resource:
http://www.proboat-digital.com/proboa...at/200608/ click "contents" and then "R.J. Dougherty and Sons" for an article full of info on early whalers, from a 30 year veteran of the production line. [Note: you have to "turn the pages" with the left and right arrows in the top bar... took me a while to see that.] Explains a lot about the foam, and the reason why there is no one "whaler blue" color for the deck gelcoats! Jeff, that was, as you say, a very "good read." thanks! And thanks, Tom, for your amazing experiment! I was up until 2 AM one night reading the thread. (Did BW ever get back to you with what they concluded after testing your chunk of the CSW?)
i run a large fiberglass shop on the chesapeake, some of the construction and quility build of some new boats is scary, let me say this warrenty work can keep us busy enough!! Some new boats ive had to sign a no talk disscloser, so i cant talk about some boats, they were sailboats though!! bluewater sailboats, thats scary!! i just purchased a 1973 13' whaler from a friend wow was the orginal owner! he has kept it in his climate controlled workshed since maybe 82 or 84 its a real gem just needs some tlc and an engine
Grew up on Long Island, where you live, and lived for a while in Orient, and in Hampton Bays, not far from you. Whalers were part and parcel of the Long Island life--- north shore and south shore.
All I will add to the foam thing, is if one goes a marina here in the North East, most will find flotation under the docks, as they need to need to be removed for the winter, also most are foam... I have never seen a dock sunk with foam flotation. It is also probably of a much lower quality of the one used in our whalers.
