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Montauk 17 vs Outrage 18
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| CapnJs |
Posted on 04/25/07 - 3:21 PM
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I'm a new Whaler fan still looking for my first Montauk or maybe an 18 Outrage. I have posted two threads on Whaler Central with "Montauk 17" in the title. One was for some help with a boat I was trying to buy (passed on it) and the other was to pass on some info on a boat for sale. Perhaps it's not any news to you old time Whaler fans but one thread has been viewed 300 times and the other 350 times.
I guess the way to have your article viewed is to mention Montauk 17 in the title. Seriously though, we have owned and chartered sail and power boats from 10 feet to 35 feet and I don't think I have been as excited looking for a boat as I am looking for a Whaler. Maybe it's because we only have a little 10 foot sail boat now and we are looking forward to being back on the water.
I'd be curious to hear from people who have owned a 17 Montauk and an 18 Outrage as to performance, ease of towing and any other comments. We will be using the boat most of the time on tidal rivers, along the coast and sometimes on a small lake.
Capn Js
Edited by CapnJs on 04/29/07 - 5:58 PM |
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| kamie |
Posted on 04/25/07 - 3:55 PM
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Disclaimer: I own an 18 Outrage
Montauk and the 18 Outrage are probably the two most sought after whalers. They are both very sea worthy and you could make either work fine, provided you pick your days. Given the desire to "be on the water" combined with the areas you seem to want to take the boat, I would suggest the 18 Outrage. For being only 1 foot longer, it's has the big boat feel, just standing in it, where the Montauk does not. I boat in the same type area, tidal river opening into a large bay (Chesapeake) and the Outrage has worked very well, both going out when it's nice, and coming home when it's not.
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| Joe Kriz |
Posted on 04/25/07 - 4:32 PM
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Disclaimer: I also own an Outrage 18'.......
The Outrage 18' is actually 2 feet longer than the Montauk 17'.
The Classic 16/17 foot hulls are 16' 7" in length.
The Classic Outrage 18' is 18' 6" in length... That's 1 inch less than 2 feet longer than a Montauk.
The Outrage 18' also has a wider beam. Much easier to get around the console.
The Outrage 18' feels, and really is, a much larger boat.
The Outrage really doesn't weigh that much more than the Montauk.
950 pounds for the Montauk and 1250 pounds for the Outrage 18'... Plus the difference in engine weight depending on which engines are on the back of each boat.
Here is my story on the difference between the Montauk 17' and the Outrage 18'.
I owned a 1978 Montauk 17' for 15 years. Great boat but I always wanted an Outrage 18'.
The Outrage 18' will go just about anywhere the Montauk will go and it will take rougher conditions. I used to have to come in off the lake with the Montauk as soon as the wind came up as it would take me several hours to get back through the rough chop if I didn't. With the Outrage 18', I can stay on the lake as long as I want and still get back to the cabin quickly. It handles the rougher water much easier than the Montauk.
I owned a 1/2 ton truck that would pull the Montauk or the Outrage 18' without any problems. I also used to tow the Montauk with a 6 cylinder Jeep Cherokee but probably would not want to tow the Outrage 18' with that around the mountains where I live. You might be able to tow the Outrage with a Jeep if you were on flatter terrain as long as the trailer has brakes.
Another difference between the two is how you plan to store the boat. The Outrage will not fit into a standard garage where the Montauk usually will if the trailer has a removable or pivot tongue. So, a person needs to keep that in mind if they plan on putting their Whaler in a garage.
I will always treasure the years I had with my Montauk, but if I had it to do all over again, I would have moved right into the Outrage 18'..... No question in my mind.
All size Whalers have there place for what you intend to do with them.
I owned a 13' Sport for 13 years... This was also a great boat for what I used it for.
It fit into my small garage. I towed it with a Volkswagen Squareback for all those years.
[img]http://users.sisqtel.net/jkriz/Sport13/Sport13.jpg[/img] [img]http://www.joekriz.com/images/photoalbum/album_1/64.jpg[/img]
I used the 13' on the shallow upper waters of the Colorado River just below the Hoover Dam.
I could NOT have used a larger Whaler, especially a Montauk, as I would have hit the rocky bottom of the river and not been able to go up the river like I wanted...
So, every Whaler has it's place depending on what you intend to use it for.
I've owned quite a few Whalers, but I intend on keeping the Outrage 18' as it fits my all around needs for the rivers and lakes in my area along with the ocean once and awhile.
http://users.sisqtel.net/jkriz/whaler...alers.html
Edited by Joe Kriz on 04/25/07 - 4:39 PM |
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| jaemrich |
Posted on 04/25/07 - 5:00 PM
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would anybody argue that a Montauk is less maintenance than an Outrage? Less wood, above deck gas tank, simpler design with solid floor rather than an insert. (please correct if i have incorrectly cited differences - not that familar with the outrage but i have seen the rehab picts). No doubt the Outrage is more seaworthy and probably drier. If it is simplicity and low maintenace you are looking for the Montauk wins. Fuel consumption and repowering costs are less on the Montauk. Resell value - probably the same.
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| kamie |
Posted on 04/25/07 - 5:31 PM
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I'm not sure the Montauk is any less maintenance, assuming you have a single on the Outrage. Both have wood, depending on the year and I don't believe there is that much more with the Outrage. If you have wood, you have to maintain it.
The internal gas tank is always a concern, but then so would be storing 60 gallons of gas on a Montauk to get the same range is a huge fire hazard, keep well away of any smokers.
As for towing, I currently tow the Outrage with either a 1994 Blazer or Highlander Hybrid. Both tow the outrage fine but I don't live anywhere near the mountains. I prefer to tow with the Highlander, just because it's a nicer car to drive, once the boat and the trailer are parked, I tow with the Blazer when I am loaded down with stuff since it's tow rating is 1500 pounds more than the Higlander.
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| Joe Kriz |
Posted on 04/25/07 - 5:49 PM
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jaemrich,
No arguments here, just discussions....
We would have to look at the same years of Outrages versus Montauk rather than trying to compare the Classics to the newer Models.... So let's compare just the Classics to begin with.
1. The Classic Montauk has the same console as the Classic Outrage with 2 teak louvered doors. Maybe a Fire Extinguisher Pocket and maybe teak Console Rod Holders...
So, maintenance would be the same here.
2. Less overall wood?
Not necessarily. All Outrages don't have teak gunwales.
If the Outrage has the fiberglass gunwales, then the maintenance would be the same as the Montauk as far as wood goes. If the Outrage has the teak gunwales, then yes, more wood to maintain.
3. Fuel tanks, either external or built-in internal.
Both of these types of tanks should last for years, maybe forever if taken care of.
However, if something should happen to these tanks, then yes, it would be cheaper to replace the external tank(s) than the internal. No doubt about it.
4. Fuel consumption...
Montauk wins... You are pushing a larger boat in the Outrage and it takes more fuel to push it.
However, it depends on how the person is using the boat too.
I troll all day long, 8 hours, using my 8 hp trolling motor. I burn 2 1/2 gallons a day. The Montauk burned the same amount as I had the same engine on my Montauk. So, the fuel burn would be the same for this type of situation. Although getting to the area before firing up the trolling motor is a different story.
5. Repowering costs?
Larger engines do cost more. Montauk wins if we are buying NEW engine(s) to replace the old.
6. Price for Montauk versus Outrage 18'...
The Montauk is usually less original cost so the Montauk would win here too.
Not always, but usually..... If they were the same price, then everyone would probably buy the Outrage 18'....
Those are just some of the things we all have to consider when we purchase a Whaler.
If a person wants less boat maintenance, then maybe they should consider a newer Montauk 170 without any wood at all.... or a newer model Outrage with no wood.
I owned a 1998 Outrage 17' II.... Great boat, and no wood. Easy to maintain..
But, I didn't like it because it didn't have any wood... So, I sold it.
Again, it comes down to what people want out of their boats.
I don't think I would want any wood on my boat if it sat outdoors and/or in the water without being covered up. That would be a pain in the neck to try and maintain.
However, I trailer my boat(s) and it lives in my garage, so my maintenance isn't much more than what I had on the Montauk. About the same.
Same style single axle trailer with NO brakes.
Same amount of wood except the Outrage has the teak gunwales...
About the same maintenance costs on the engine(s). Maybe more spark plugs depending on the engine(s)....
Insurance is a little more, but not much. I think it is around $50 a year more for the Outrage than I paid on the Montauk...
Again, I am not knocking the Montauk at all. It is a fantastic boat.
If a person wants a Montauk, then by all means, buy a Montauk.
If a person wants an Outrage, buy an Outrage.
But, if a person is considering buying a Montauk or an Outrage 18', I would go for the Outrage 18'............
That is my story and I'm sticking to it.......... 
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| CapnJs |
Posted on 04/25/07 - 6:38 PM
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Joe,
I'm leaning toward an Outrage but any thoughts about towing it with a 4 cylinder, 4 wheel drive, Ford Escape? The Escape manual says gross weight maximum of 5,000 but I know that doesn't always tell the story.
Being close to the ocean with the Isles of Shoals only five miles offshore I like the idea of a bigger boat with more fuel but we might like to trailer the boat and I'm not sure about a 4 cylinder truck?
It's interesting that the two boats are about the same price in our area. I looked at a 1985 Montauk with a 2006 Honda (90 I think) for 14,000 and there is a 1990 Outrage with a 1998 Yamaha available for $10,900. I know that is 3,000 difference but similar model years with similar aged motors come closer in price.
Capn Js
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| Joe Kriz |
Posted on 04/25/07 - 7:00 PM
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Js,
You would have to define "Towing" a little more for me....
5 miles, 10 miles? Flat ground? Mountainous?
I would think 4 cylinders would not be enough unless on flat ground and short distances...
I tow my boats 5 hours one way.... through very mountainous terrain.
My truck pulled my prior Outrage 22' on flat ground at 70 mph and it didn't even know the boat was back there except maybe for the fuel mileage.
When towing the 22' in the mountains, the truck new it was there, but it still didn't stop me from doing 70 mph if I wanted to.
The 18' is easier to tow than the 22', but I still use the same and only truck I have now.
A Ford F-250 Diesel.
[img]http://users.sisqtel.net/jkriz/F250/ford-8.jpg[/img]
Maybe other people here will give you their opinion and experience with towing a boat with a 4 cylinder vehicle.
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| CapnJs |
Posted on 04/25/07 - 7:12 PM
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Joe,
Most of the towing would be short, less than 5 miles but it would be nice every now and then to take the boat an hour or two on relatively flat terrain. Most of the roads along the coast are fairly flat. I'll be interested to see if anyone else tows with a 4 cylinder.
Js
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| kamie |
Posted on 04/26/07 - 10:57 AM
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You might try taking the Outrage for a test tow? If you find one your interested in, ask if you, along with the owner can tow the boat on the way to the sea trial? That would give you a better feel for how the boat and trailer are setup and how the escape handles the load. The Ford Escape shows a 3500 pound tow rating?
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| JJS |
Posted on 04/26/07 - 11:38 AM
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I currently tow my Outrage 18' with a 2006 Nissan Frontier, she has a 260hp V6 and seems to be a very good fit for the boat, I can tell shes back there but I have plenty of power to move her around. However, I used to tow with a 2004 X-Terra, this vehicle had the older 3.3L V6 which produced only around 180hp. I found the older X-Terra to be very sluggish and not really up to the task of pulling an Outrage 18' around. I'd seriously doubt a 4 cyl. will have enough umph to make towing an Outrage 18' around regularly much fun.
Having said that, I've owned both a Classic Montauk and an Outrage 18' and find the Outrage to be a much more boat than the size difference suggests. In fact it is the Classic Montauk that most folks refer to when they describe the Whaler ride as teeth chattering. Its hard to convince most non-Whaler owners that despite Whalers hard riding reputation the Outrage 18' is such a soft riding boat... but the truth is, that its like night and day.
I didn't like my Montauk... however the Outrage 18' seems to me the perfect small boat.
John
Edited by JJS on 04/26/07 - 11:51 AM |
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| CapnJs |
Posted on 04/26/07 - 5:29 PM
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Kamie,
The V6 Escape has a 3,500 lb trailer rating but the 4 Cylinder only has a 1,500 lb rating. I might take a chance on short hauls to the ramp but I wouldn't do it on any long trips.
I think I need to rethink the Escape.
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| kamie |
Posted on 04/26/07 - 5:40 PM
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When I first got my Outrage, I had a Toyota Corolla or a Volvo wagon, neither would cut it to tow the boat. That is why I own the Blazer, borrowed it from a friend to tow the boat around, and finally bought it fairly cheap from him when he moved. If don't tow the boat all the time, or mostly short hauls then think about getting a beat but running older V6 to tow with.
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| dwhite |
Posted on 05/07/07 - 9:36 PM
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I have an 86' Outrage and tow it EASILY w/ my 2000 Nissan Xterra (6 cyl). My trailer doesn't have brakes. I've even pulled it up the boat ramp in 2WD (by accident) with no problem.
I live in coastal Maine. Obviously in the bigger stuff it is slow going. But in 1-2 ft chop it handles well. It is nothing but a solid boat. My neighbor, who has a 17' Sea Hunt, came for a ride and couldn't believe it... he said he felt like he was standing on a dock... He just couldn't believe the difference.
Also, the 18' Outrage doesn't draft alot of water so I can take into some pretty neat places at lower tides.
One more suggestion, I would look for models w/ a 150HP motor (the max rated HP). Sometimes I wish I had more, but I'm a speed freak. If I had less I would need to do something about it.
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| RGT |
Posted on 05/08/07 - 5:14 AM
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CapnJs wrote:
Joe,
I'm leaning toward an Outrage but any thoughts about towing it with a 4 cylinder, 4 wheel drive, Ford Escape?...
Trust your instincts CaptnJs.
IMHO the Outrage will better suit your needs but you'll very likely need a larger tow vehicle.
Best of luck.
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| jwkennedy92 |
Posted on 05/08/07 - 11:30 AM
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is your escape a true 4wd vehicle? does it have 4-low gearing?
if you put in and take out on a steep ramp, i'd be worried about having enough torque. i had an old 2WD ford explorer, 6 cylinder, that couldn't pull a 2000lb bowrider out of the water on a steep ramp. i think it was rated to tow 4000lbs, but it just wasn't geared low enough to get started uphill.
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| Buckda |
Posted on 05/08/07 - 4:34 PM
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A 4-cylinder "anything" that is currently on the automobile market isn't going to cut the mustard for the 18 and any kind of towing duty. I tow with the V-6 Explorer (3,500 lb rated) and find that the 18 pushes the vehicle around a bit when braking hard....and I've broken the rear springs....the 18' Outrage is really a rig you want to tow with a full-size vehicle, although I've towed tens of thousands of miles with my Explorer. ...I think I'm on the very edge though, and I'm starting to notice (just this spring) some signs of transmission wear (147,000 miles on the 2002 vehicle now)....the 0 percent for 60 is up in October, and any life after October for that truck is gravy...I'm going to upsize to an Avalanche, I think.
In my mind, the 18 is a bit more expensive boat to own than a Montauk - towing; it will eat more gas - storage - you may have to pay for indoor or outdoor storage vs. the Montauk that will fit in most garages - Fuel consumption for normal operation - you're feeding a larger motor and pushing more weight, and have much larger fuel capacity (read: expensive credit card swipes at the pump)...more hull equals more time to clean, more product to wax and clean the boat with, etc.
Is it worth it?
I think so. I'm biased, but I believe that the 18' outrage gives you many more options to do much more, much more comfortably than the 17...however, the 17 can get you in some pretty skinny water for back bays and rivers...and as great as the 18 is for "more" the 22 is even more!
I love my 18...my perfect fleet of Whalers would include a 15, an 18 and a 25.
I need to go buy a mega millions (lottery) ticket.....
Good luck with your decision....sounds like you want an 18' Outrage and a nice used Chevy Tahoe....
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| robaguero |
Posted on 05/08/07 - 5:10 PM
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I tow my 22' Outrage with a 4 cylinder (Diesel) Toyota Hilux. It is a small beast with stump pulling torque (3.73 axle ratio) and factory limited slip rear diff. This truck is not available in the USA but very trusted the world over. You cannot go above 140 KM/H (85 MPH) but it can go off-road with the best of them in stock outfit with good off-road tires.No trailer brakes and definitely you know and feel that there is something substantial behind your truck. Gets 27 MPG easily.
I have not had any problems towing the boat on flat, coastal roads but i wouldnt dare towing it to the highlands. Used to have an F-150 (with the 4.6 V8) and loved it but marriage pushed the sale.
My advice would be get the Outrage 18 and the largest truck your money can buy. If its an oil burner, better.......
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| Royboy |
Posted on 05/08/07 - 6:33 PM
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I have a 17 Outrage II and I towed it last year with a V6 Ranger and it was definately not enough tow vehicle. It had enough power, but braking was not adequate. The brakes are just not up to the task,
At highway speeds, it was often difficult to decide who was in charge, the truck or the boat. Not a good feeling either. I now tow with a F-150 4X4 V8. Life is good.
The Montauk will be on the outer limits of what ypou can safely tow with an Escape. The Outrage will push your truck around like a bully.
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| firstpawn |
Posted on 05/08/07 - 7:46 PM
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CapnJs
While the Montauk is my personal favorite, you mentioned the motors.
I have owned a few Yamaha's and have really enjoyed their reliability. On the other hand I recently was looking to repower my 87 Montauk and checked with a slew of Honda repairmen. All had the same advice, start a Honda every week wether you go out or not. They seem to be prone to the needles gumming up, in fact my back door neighbor repowered his 11ft with a Honda and let it sit only 30 days and had to have the fool thing fixed for the exact reason. Now I have a lot of Honda products but the outboards seem to be real sensative to this issue.
I just purchased a Yamaha for mine and will be posting pics of the revamp soon.
High Tides,
Eric
Marco Island, FL
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