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'61 Johnson 40hp, hard to start hot
gullake	#1  Posted on 07/19/11 - 5:01 PM
Member Posts: 14 Comments: 0 Joined: 10/20/07	When I first start this motor cold it starts right up and will run around the lake all day, strong and smooth at any speed. Shows no signs of overheating. Shut it off and it is almost impossible to restart, even if you try immediately or five minutes later. It cranks normally but doesn't even try too fire. If you're lucky and it does start after extended cranking it fires up and runs smooth, not like it's clearing itself out from a flooded condition. I have tried choke on, choke off, pump primer bulb, disconnect fuel hose, rich and lean mixture screws trying to manipulate the fuel mixture but it makes no difference. Thinking maybe I had a week spark I replaced plugs, points, condensers and coils. Gapped points to .020, sync timing advance and throttle and visually inspected all primary and secondary wires. No help. Compression is 120psi both cyls. Last time out if left me stranded short of the boat ramp, I got it on the trailer and back home and it started right up. I thought about a cut out switch problem but it tests good and since it only kills one cyl. the motor should at least try to start. Next time out I will be smarter and take some tools and a spark tester so I can so some diagnostic work during a no start condition. Right now I am really puzzled. Anybody got a suggestion? This motor has been trouble free until now since I restored it three years ago.
zappaddles	#2  Posted on 07/19/11 - 6:52 PM
Member Posts: 478 Comments: 2 Joined: 06/03/10	Hope you get it figured out. 50 years old and starts right up; excellent. If you can't play hurt....stay home.
Binkie	#3  Posted on 07/20/11 - 9:25 AM
Member Personal Page Posts: 2012 Comments: 0 Joined: 12/19/05	Had a similar problem with my '61 75hp Evinrude Starflite. Installed a new carb float and it starts easily now. they are still available from your Evinrude dealer or Gary"s Marine Repair, 727-863-9277 (Tampa area) Or for other ideas, ask this question on the AOMCI (Antique Outboard Motor Club Inc.) site.
RyanF	#4  Posted on 07/20/11 - 12:19 PM
Member Personal Page Posts: 35 Comments: 0 Joined: 02/02/09	Could it be vapor lock? 5 minutes might not be long enough. I would try 100 octane aviation gas and see what happens. Edited by RyanF on 07/20/11 - 12:21 PM -Ryan
gullake	#5  Posted on 07/22/11 - 5:41 PM
Member Posts: 14 Comments: 0 Joined: 10/20/07	OK, I took the boat out last night with some tools. Ran it around for awhile, shut it off and restarted it. After the third try it failed to restart. I had spark on both cylinders, compression. and carb float bowl full of gas. It cranked but never even tried to start. I even shot a little carb spray down it's throat while cranking. Engine never exceeded normal operating temp. I'm just wondering, could this in any way indicate a reed valve problem? Say a reed is cracked and when it gets hot it separates a little bit. This may not effect high rpm running but when shut down it may prevent fuel from being pushed into the cylinder at cranking speed. I didn't notice any fuel being spit back out the carb but I was sitting far enough away working the key that I could have missed it. Sounds plausible to me although one bad reed would only effect one cylinder and it should at least try to start on the good cylinder. I have never encountered a bad reed valve so this is a just theoretical to me. I know when you have a problem it is helpful to blame something you don't really understand. Any reed valve experts out there got a thought on this?
Binkie	#6  Posted on 07/23/11 - 3:53 AM
Member Personal Page Posts: 2012 Comments: 0 Joined: 12/19/05	Doesn't that motor have petal reeds, six to a cylinder?
Derwd24	#7  Posted on 07/23/11 - 7:37 AM
Member Posts: 1607 Comments: 9 Joined: 05/09/07	When it wouldn't start after cranking for the 3rd try, did you pull the plugs to see if they were wet (gas is being delivered to the cylinders)? Dave - 1983 Outrage 22
Tig	#8  Posted on 07/23/11 - 4:45 PM
Member Personal Page Posts: 122 Comments: 0 Joined: 02/24/09	I had a few reed problems back in my motorcycle days. Flexed, broken, in each case the symptom was the the crankcase seemed to load up at idle and it took a bit of RPM to air it out and get things firing right. Hot or cold it still started fine. 1995 Dauntless 15, Honda 50
gullake	#9  Posted on 07/23/11 - 8:12 PM
Member Posts: 14 Comments: 0 Joined: 10/20/07	Thanks to everyone for your input. Yes I pulled the plugs when I couldn't get it started and they were dry. I should have tried putting a little gas into the cylinders but didn't have a good way to. I will go better equipped next time. As for vapor lock, I don't think that is an issue because it will be running great, I'll shut it off and immediately turn the key to restart, cranks but won't fire. A pump or two of the primer bulb and it's hard, meaning that fuel has filled the carb bowl enough to close the needle and seat. I've never been into the reeds but the illustration in my parts manual look like pedal reeds to me, 7 of them per cylinder. I know I'm stretching with the reed valve thing but I'm just trying to think of anything that could be a possible issue. On my next testing trip I am going to use a spark tester that is adjustable so I can determine exactly how far it can jump and also have a way to squirt a little gas into the cylinders.
Tig	#10  Posted on 07/24/11 - 9:26 AM
Member Personal Page Posts: 122 Comments: 0 Joined: 02/24/09	My father has a chainsaw that does the same thing. Runs great, but won't restart when hot. I know your frustation. I bought a Stihl, but it always intrigued me as to why Dad's saw didn't run well. What gas/oil mix ratio are you using? What is factory spec? What are you mixture screws set at? What is factory spec? On a warmed up engine. If you do a few minute WOT run, kill the engine and pull the plugs what colour are the insulators? Can you post a pic of them. Does the idle speed change much from warmed up to too hot to restart? Gas in the plug hole will definitely restart, but will it stay running? Where I'm going with all this is, air leak in the crankcase. 1995 Dauntless 15, Honda 50
gullake	#11  Posted on 07/24/11 - 3:05 PM
Member Posts: 14 Comments: 0 Joined: 10/20/07	I didn't get the boat in the water this weekend but have been playing with it in the driveway. Tig's response got me thinking. I can't tell you much about the plugs right now other than they were dry. On my next testing run I will take a closer look at the plugs and will go equipped to squirt some fuel into the cylinders to see if that will fire it up. Right now I'm thinking that fuel just isn't being pulled out of the carb at cranking speed. Thinking back to when this problem first occurred, I had stopped in the lake to adjust the tilt pin, moving it to the highest notch. Wondering if I may have a float problem that is giving me a slightly lower than normal fuel level in the float bowl and tilting the motor has made it worse. This combined with loosing a little bit of crankcase sealing could make it hard to get fuel flowing. I replaced upper and lower crankshaft seals a year ago but I notice there is still a small amount of oil leakage from the upper seal so it is not 100%. I'll let you know where I go from here.
Dave Wheeler	#12  Posted on 07/25/11 - 5:29 AM
Member Posts: 31 Comments: 0 Joined: 01/07/08	I think you just identified the most likely cause of the restarting problem at the end of your last post. The first "big" outboard I had was a 1961 Johnson 40. Like yours it had a leaky upper seal. This was one was on the end of the crankshaft. It threw oil right onto the points and made it very difficult to restart. After it was replaced for the third or fourth time we replaced the engine. Thinking back about 45 years, my recollection is that I was told that the OMC 40's for 1960 and 1961 were built with an insufficient number of bearings to support the crankshaft near this seals and with the additional horsepower of the 40 over the previous 35 were prone to causing leaking seals at the end of the crankshaft. This was resolved with a redesign, adding 2 more bearings on the crankshaft, on the 1962 version of the 40. The actual material that got on the points (whatever it was) would dry over time enough to let me restart the motor. This is likely to be the devil inside your motor.