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New motor for 1998 Dauntless 15
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| gary0319 |
Posted on 12/03/13 - 5:53 PM
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Joe Kriz wrote:
The F70 only weighs 8 more pounds then the F60.
Why buy the F60 unless it is thousands of dollars cheaper?
Exactly, and if the sales guy is right that the price difference from the F60 to the F70 is only $300-350 at list, it's not much of a decision. But, I'll be sure to shop other dealers.
1998 Dauntless 15 - 1998 Mercury 60 |
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| dauntless-n-miami |
Posted on 12/04/13 - 7:04 AM
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Hello again Gary and an inquiry for you, why are you interested in a 4-stroke as opposed to an E-Tec 2-stroke?
One other item I forgot to mention earlier with my Dauntless is my larger fuel tank (18 gal's) which adds quite a bit more weight to the stern and still my scuppers are just above the water-line.
Gary, I am under the impression that the Admirial and you do most of your boating/fishing inshore as opposed to any offshore (thus the new stern addition of a "shallow water" anchor pole) I LIKE IT ALOT...
Is casual cruising and with good fuel economy your objective, yes/no?
Is this why your opting for lighter horsepower versus weight? 4-stroke over E-Tec or rather a 2-stroke?
From my experience the Dauntless 15's (from 1994-1998) for some reason were under-powered, not many were rigged with the max horsepower rating (I will assume the boat dealers or buyers influenced that decision during the period years) or repowered during later years light in horsepower to save weight by there owners.
The 4-strokes do produce good torque but are a bit slower to rev unlike the 2-strokes. The weight differences between them are manageable.
Gary have you had extra company go boating on your Dauntless other than your spouse? Say 2 more adults? Food and drink? Maybe with fishing gear? How did the 60hp do getting on plane? Time to plane?
Did you get much water intrusion through the scuppers?
The E-tec's are nice somewhat simple (electronics and computer aside) outboards, powerful and possibly (no definitely) more quiet than your current Merc 60. I am aware you mentioned that there isn't a good dealer support for them in your neck of the woods, shame. Certain model E-Tec's have an additional (D.C. or 12 Volt) producing charge system if I read correctly.
Just sharing some thoughts with you...
1996 Dauntless 15, Sportsman Pkg. - 2007 Yamaha 90 HP 2-Stroke |
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| gary0319 |
Posted on 12/04/13 - 12:56 PM
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HI Angel thanks for thinking of me and sharing your thoughts.
On the e-tec......it actually was on my preferred list from the start. I thought the e-tec 60 would be a nice replacement for the Merc. But, I'm being dissuaded by my current mechanic whom I trust pretty much, and although we have some Evenrude technicians in the area the nearest "platinum" certified is 35 miles away. MY mechanic recommends Mercury for the big stuff (offshore raceboats) and Yamaha for us little guys.
Of course after pricing out a new Yamaha with all the rigging, etc I might be better just looking at an entire replacement boat, or keeping what I have.....which works just fine.
BTW the Wang shallow anchor system is a God send. My anchor has not been out of the locker since we put the Wang on, about 8 months ago.
1998 Dauntless 15 - 1998 Mercury 60 |
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| dauntless-n-miami |
Posted on 12/05/13 - 11:14 AM
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Mercury, Yamaha doesn't matter what size boat anymore not like years ago. It's a shame that 2 strokes took the hit with emmission mandates some years back.
Gary your Merc 60 appears flawless, if your looking for a bit more "get-up-and-go" we can get your mechanic to slap a "low-water pick-up" nose cone to your lower-unit, hydraulic or electric "Jack plate" surface piercing "race" prop and awaayyy she goes...
I know, it's a bit much but a nice thought...
Some years back I designed and fabricated a similiar bracket (before the idea got popular) for using push poles as a shallow water anchor. My bracket design mounts onto the outboards trim bracket incorporating the actual motor/transom bolts. It also doubles as a mount for our large beach umbrella for real sunny days where the bimini-top is not quite enough shade for my Admirial.
A bigger or different boat??? Fuel prices and fuel quality are not getting better and the simplicity of trailering/launching/retreiving and maintaining our little Dauntlesses is a "no brainer" in my opinion.
If it's the engine noise, get bigger radio speakers...LoL.
You have some serious thinking to do regarding a decision. See ya my friend...
Angel M.
1996 Dauntless 15, Sportsman Pkg. - 2007 Yamaha 90 HP 2-Stroke |
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| gary0319 |
Posted on 12/06/13 - 2:10 PM
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Hi All,
Todays was Mercury's turn for an audition. Local Mercury dealer was much more helpful than my Yamaha experience of earlier in the week. This guy knew his stuff and had done a number of Whaler repowers (even knew what a Duantless was). Spoke highly of Yamaha, but wasn't particularly impressed with the new 70. He is also a Suzuki dealer, but recommended a Merc over the Zukes. Not because of the motors, but because of the company, and they way it treats warranty work.
He gave me all the options if I wanted to swap my 2 stroke for a EFI 60 (not bigfoot) Pluses are being able to retain my less than one year old Merc instruments and controls which reduces not only the price but the installation time. I could also use my sometimes beloved Stiletto prop.
All in all the $$ are looking a lot better by staying with the Mercury.....and he may have a buyer for my 2 stroke.
Now, time to muddle.
Muddle, muddle, Muddle....
Gary
1998 Dauntless 15 - 1998 Mercury 60 |
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| Joe Kriz |
Posted on 12/06/13 - 2:22 PM
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I see a 2014 Mercury in your future.
You don't mention the size though.
60 hp @ 247 pounds
60 hp bigfoot @ 260 pounds
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| Finnegan |
Posted on 12/06/13 - 3:13 PM
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Have you noticed that the Mercury 50HP/60 HP and the Yamaha 50HP/60Hp/70HP powerheads are IDENTICAL in specification displacement and bore and stroke? The 70 Yamaha gets it extra HP from dual OHC, while the others all have single OHC.
I have never been able to figure out how the two competitors are using the same powerhead, which has been happening since 2003. Iit sure would be nice to know what's going on here.
I do know that 1993-2002 Mercury and Yamaha built identical 4-stroke 50's and 9.9's jointly, with the powerhead being cast and manufactured by Mercury, and the heads by Yamaha.
So maybe Mercury is still manufacturing the powerhead for Yamaha? Just a guess. From what I have heard, for the Mercury engines, the Mercury powerhead and other engine components, are still being manufactured in WI, and then shipped to the Mercury 40-60HP assembly plant in China.
Ask your selling dealer what he knows about the same powerhead situation between the two brands.
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| gary0319 |
Posted on 12/06/13 - 3:55 PM
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Joe,
Todays discussion was centered on the small gear case 60, not the bigfoot. But, I'm interested in both.
Finnegan,
My recent readings have unearthed a lot of discussion about this relationship between Yamaha and Mercury. It's hard to follow the players without a program, though. Some say the blocks are (were) the same, some say the power heads were (are) the same. Some like things made in Fond du Lac, some don't care.
For my part I just want things to work when the key is turned and I want to pop up on plane quickly. I'd also like to be able to trim the motor "in" further than my Merc can accommodate .
And like Charlie B, I want it for 5 cents.
Gary
Edited by gary0319 on 12/06/13 - 3:55 PM
1998 Dauntless 15 - 1998 Mercury 60 |
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| jw0287 |
Posted on 12/06/13 - 4:25 PM
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Am i incorrect to say that the 4 stroke 60hp will not get the boat on plane quicker then Garys current 2 stroke?
If that is the case, u may be ok to know that it will be much quieter. An may bridge the gap.
Nothing like a Whaler |
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| jw0287 |
Posted on 12/06/13 - 4:52 PM
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Finnegan when u sleak of the yamaha 70hp are you speaking of previous models prior to f70la
The f70la is sohc motor
Nothing like a Whaler |
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| Finnegan |
Posted on 12/06/13 - 5:10 PM
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Trim "tuck in" is mostly related to the hull transom angle, since today's engines all pretty much have the same power trim range. I would compare the trim design on the 2 stroke Merc vs the new 4-stroke Merc. It still could be the same unit.
If so, and more tuck-in is needed, there are aftermarket transom wedges that can be used to increase tuck in.
Many have wondered about the actual performance difference between the Yamaha 70 and the Yamaha/Mercury 60's, with the issue being how much more acceleration or top end the dual overhead cams of the 70 provide. Most think a little, but not much, perhaps one or 2 MPH in top end. Unfortunately, Yamaha doesn't give that data.
As for cost, maybe he will tell us the difference in the quotes. Since Mercurys tend to be more competively sold than Yamaha, and the boat is already rigged Mercury, the difference could make the slight extra HP not worth the expense. I see the Mercury 60 4-stroke EFI non-Bigfoot being sold for $5650. I don't what the Yamaha 70 goes for.
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| gary0319 |
Posted on 12/06/13 - 6:20 PM
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Finnegan,
I've wondered about the use of a wedge to get; more "tuck" but have never seen it discussed anywhere, although I've not really searched. All I know is that I pretty much have to run my current motor "in" all the way in most sea conditions other than calm or slightly rippled water. And up wind it's a must.
On pricing... and these have all been dealer 'ballpark" figures during discussions, with no actual quotes being given. Between the Mercury 60 (non bigfoot) and the Yamahas (60 or 70) there seems to be about a $1,000 difference. The Yamaha dealer noted that the difference between the 60 and the 70la was only about $350 more for the 70. This is list pricing without considering the additional rigging necessary for the Yamaha (maybe $500).
Also for my consideration is the value of my current 2 stroke . I've been told by two different sources that I might be able to get between $1,500 and maybe as high as $2,000 since strong, well kept 2 strokes are commanding a pretty good price right now. However these are guesses by dealers that won't take it in on trade, so ....???
So, the parts and pieces are beginning to reveal themselves and more will come into view in the next few weeks, I'm sure. In the mean time, thanks to everyone for all the constructive comments and posts. I'm learning a lot and it certainly helps.
Gary
Edited by gary0319 on 12/06/13 - 6:22 PM
1998 Dauntless 15 - 1998 Mercury 60 |
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| jw0287 |
Posted on 12/07/13 - 6:25 AM
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In my area on craigslist theres some motor like yours. A mercury 2003 think its a 90 an they want 2800 theres a 2001 johnson 70 they want 2750 installed with 1 year warranty.
So that 1500-2000 may be a reasonable price.
Of course id aim for 2000 as a seller an 1500 as a buyer.
Nothing like a Whaler |
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| jw0287 |
Posted on 12/07/13 - 6:29 AM
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Directly off yamaha website.
So unless theres an older 70hp which was brought up, the 70hp from yamaha is a sohc. it does not get its extra hp from dohc. It probably gets it from shadu advertising. Keep in mind, id still buy one if money wasnt an option. K thanks.
F70 (NEW)
Weighing in at up to 80 pounds lighter than its four stroke competitors, this 16-valve SOHC (Single Overhead Camshaft) midrange four stroke offers the greatest power-to-weight ratio in its class. That makes it perfect for lightweight fishing boats, pontoons and fiberglass boats. In addition, it’s Command Link® and YCOP™ compatible
Nothing like a Whaler |
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| gary0319 |
Posted on 12/07/13 - 6:49 AM
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jw0287 wrote:
Directly off yamaha website.
So unless theres an older 70hp which was brought up, the 70hp from yamaha is a sohc. it does not get its extra hp from dohc. It probably gets it from shadu advertising. Keep in mind, id still buy one if money wasnt an option. K thanks.
It's my understanding that the new 70LA is indeed single OHC, but 4 valves per cylinder...as opposed to the 2 valves per cylinder of the 50/60 of the family.
You are right, if the money was equal I'd most likely opt for the Yamaha. But, the migration path to the Mercury 60 seems to be a lot less $$$. More talks with local mechanics and dealers in the works.
Gary
1998 Dauntless 15 - 1998 Mercury 60 |
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| Finnegan |
Posted on 12/07/13 - 12:03 PM
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Sorry about the DOHC mistake. I knew there was something different in the heads and valve train, so I guess the extra 10HP comes from the extra 2 valves per cylinder.
When Trailer Boats magazine tested these same engines in their 50HP versions, for some reason the Mercury 50 4-stroke was faster than the Yamaha F50, in spite of the same powerhead. Since someone mentioned E-tec, in this testing the E-tec 50 was 5 MPH slower top end (30 vs 35mph), credited mostly to it's oversized (Bigfoot) gear case and only being a 2 banger. All the 4-strokes have 4 cylinders.
It would be interesting to see how the 60 HP Merc runs against the 70 HP Yamaha. It could be pretty close, and Yamaha doesn't show us any comparisons. Whaler has installed thousands of the 60's on their smaller boats, and we don't hear many compaints at all, if any. From what I can tell, in the 50-70HP outboard market, Mercury and Yamaha pretty much own the market with this powerhead.
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| gary0319 |
Posted on 12/08/13 - 2:40 PM
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Today I was talking with a nice guy at the boat ramp. He had a 60 Merc 4s Bigfoot on his poling skiff. He said his boat weight was about 1,000 lbs and he's getting about 33 mph WOT, With a Merc 15 pitch aluminum prop. He said his hole shot is great. Likes the motor a lot. Suggested I really consider the Bigfoot in place of the standard gearcase. I'm looking at the specs on the Bigfoot now and need to find the price upgrade from the standard. I wonder if a 4 blade prop on a standard gearcase would approach the hole shot of the Bigfoot. Anyone have opinions on the Bigfoot vs the standard on the Dauntless 15??
1998 Dauntless 15 - 1998 Mercury 60 |
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| Finnegan |
Posted on 12/08/13 - 9:17 PM
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The BigFoot gearcase upcharge is only $80. See here:
http://www.jacosmarine.com/mercuryeng.../index.cfm
Supposedly the Bigfoot is for pontoon boats, as it is longer and runs deeper in the water. I have always been read the smaller gearcase is faster, yet I have noticed that Whaler has been installing the 60HP Bigfoots on 15's for years. Go figure. They must have tested both and found the Bigfoot a better solution. That is the gearcase used on the 75-125HP engines. Might be worth a call to BW Customer Service.
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| gary0319 |
Posted on 12/10/13 - 1:17 PM
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OK.......
Today I visited the local Whaler dealer to see what they had to say about repower options for me. Sometimes I'm amazed at the lack of knowledge some of these "guys" have and try to cover it up with blowing smoke.
Anyway, the one woman in the place was most helpful and actually called BW to find out what the maximum transom weight was for the Dauntless 15. While BW did not have the max transom weight for the Dauntless they did have it for the 1998 Justice 15 (310 lbs). This lines up with the weight of a 75 two stroke merc that would have been the max for the Dauntless in 1998 (305 lbs)
Looks like either the regular gear case 60 Merc or the Bigfoot will be OK.
Since, by adding the larger 12 x 11 prop and the dole fin to my 1998 2 stroke 60, I've almost replicated the advantages of the Bigfoot 4 stroke (although geared differently), I think the Bigfoot is the way to go.
I've asked my trusted mechanic to work me up a price on the Bigfoot install, so we'll soon see if this is in the card$$.
Gary
Edited by gary0319 on 12/11/13 - 1:06 AM
1998 Dauntless 15 - 1998 Mercury 60 |
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