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Water in hull conundrum
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| Buckda |
Posted on 06/14/07 - 2:57 PM
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Re: draining the fuel tank:
Find the fuel line where it comes from the tank.
If the fuel line has been cut, then pop the center deck plate at the stern of the boat and find the fuel pickup tube, reconnect a fuel hose with a primer bulb and no fitting on the other end. Pump to siphon old fuel into red portable containers and dispose of properly.
If the pickup is not working, remove the pickup tube (should be about 4-5 screws in the tank), unseal the gasket and siphon from the tank itself.
Good luck.
Dave
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| DelawareDan |
Posted on 06/14/07 - 3:03 PM
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I wouldn't guess on the moisture theory beyond what Tom said. I just know, as he said, it gets in there, and its hard to get out! I did have an interesting time with the forward locker. I'd got the boat all sealed up and ready to paint, and after powerwashing it, two more holes turned up at the lower corners of the forward locker (the ONLY locker, really, on my 17!) So out came the hairdryer again! I ran it in one side and after a while, water started bubbling up the other hole, much to my surprise. I kept taking out a couple of tablespoons at a time with a syringe, and after about 10 hours, I probably took out maybe a pint. It slowed down after that, but I ran the hairdryer on it for another 30 hours or so (on low) and got maybe another quarter pint. Then it dried up. It did seem to migrate away from the heat or vaporize upwards. Darned if I know. And I don't know that there's any practical advice in the experience... just thought I'd throw it out there. I was glad to get what I could out of there.
As to the weight of the gas, I'd suggest you just fill the tanks up. Then you should be able to accurately account for their weight.
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| Derwd24 |
Posted on 06/14/07 - 5:27 PM
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Thanks for the replies. I took the boat up to the transfer station today and had it weighed, guy said the scale there is pretty accurate to 80 lbs give or take. Total with the trailer was 4560 Lbs. New trailer is 880 Lbs, so that brings it down to 3680, which is a bit better than what the boat yard guy said yesterday (and most of the equipment was still on board). I weighed most of the misc. gear and it's approx 150 lbs, so I'm a little over 3500. From here on in, it's anyone's guess as far as the bimini, console, post, and main fuel weight... But given that, the 600 lb difference I get when I approximate "should be" numbers doesn't look too bad?
That being said, I followed your link Joe and if I'm safe in assuming that the draft is max at the stern in these boats, a quick measure to my barnicle line confirms this is sitting 2.5 to 3" lower than that in the water. Sigh....
Thanks for the draining idea Dave, I may give that a go. It's one way to answer the question and eliminate that variable. Just need to figure who would be able to handle disposal...
And I would consider filling it Dan, very good idea. Unfortunately the previous owner never used the tank, so I have no idea what's in there? Can't be good after all this time I'd imagine.
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| Tom W Clark |
Posted on 06/14/07 - 7:20 PM
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Do not assume your trailer weighs 880 pounds. Launch the boat and take the trailer back to the transfer station and figure out how much it really weighs.
The very best way to calculate the fuel is to FILL the tank. You know the tank's capacity and you know that gas weighs 6.2-6.5 pounds per gallon.
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| Derwd24 |
Posted on 06/14/07 - 10:30 PM
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Thanks for the reply Tom, but would it be prudent to fill a tank that hasn't been used in a number of years with an unknown amount of old fuel in there?
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| Tom W Clark |
Posted on 06/14/07 - 11:00 PM
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Pump or syphon a little bit out and see how it looks in a glass jar. If it looks bad, discard it it or run it in your lawn mower, then reflll the tank with fresh gas.
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| Derwd24 |
Posted on 06/14/07 - 11:32 PM
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Thanks Tom. Just had a thought, is there any chance they stopped using the tank at some point because it may have had a leak? I don't know much about the track record of these tanks, or if that's a possibility, but it seems curious they'd stop using it. It would be a real mess if I filled it only to find it was leaking!
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| Joe Kriz |
Posted on 06/14/07 - 11:49 PM
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Dave,
Not all fuel tanks go bad. Generally the tanks that go bad are the ones where the boat has been left out in the weather for many years sitting in a dock or outside uncovered. Many of these boats also have a bad floor for the same reason.
Of course, anything is possible.
I would do as others have mentioned above. Drain or pump some fuel out and see what it looks like. Replace the fuel lines no matter what... Make sure you have a fuel/water separator and that it has a new filter... Put 20 gallons of fuel in the tank and check for leaks.. Then another 20 gallons.... and so on... This may take awhile to check, but I think it would be worth it if you are concerned about the tank leaking.
I would also fix your fuel gauge if it is broken. The gauges are still available.
I moved up in size from my Montauk for several reasons. More deck space, the built-in fuel tank, and a better ride in chop...
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| Derwd24 |
Posted on 06/15/07 - 12:27 AM
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Thanks for the reply Joe. I don't know the history of this boat, and it could well be one that sat out in the weather. I'm going to post some pic's of interior cracking that could provide a clue, and also wanted to say that the forward anchor locker cover as well as both on each side of the center fishwell locker have been replaced with wood, don't know if that's an indicator they'd gone bad from exposure...
But I get the feeling if there were a fuel leak after a 20 gallon addition, I'd know it pretty quickly, or is it something that would take a while to seep out as the tank is encased in foam?
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| kamie |
Posted on 06/15/07 - 6:45 AM
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I would suggest two courses of action.
1. as Tom suggested, pump out some of the gas and take a look. If there is water in the gas be suspicious.
2. get the tank leak tested. You might have to call around, but check with the local marinas and possibly auto garages. That will confirm if the tank is good.
That is a large boat, with a thirsty engine. You want to be able to go far and using portable tanks really isn't practical.
The first thing I would do is as Joe said, replace all the gas lines, if they haven't been replaced. It could be that the previous owner stopped using it because there was a gas leak in the fill hose, and he assumed the tank was bad. With the t-top it will be a pain to replace the vent hose, but possible. The fill hose should not be an issue. Assuming the 22 is like the 18, remove the fill hose and plug the tank inlet and cleanup the gas. Then undo the vent hose and use it to pull a new one thru, under the deck. you might also want to use a fish tape and the old hose in the event the old hose comes apart. Take your time, the fit is tight and it snakes over the tank straps, often with little or no clearance. I would also run the new hose from whichever end is closest to a tank strap, I believe that means you thread it in from the tank connection, not the vent side. Once you have that on, then replace the fill hose. Tighten all the connectors, making sure you put the loop back in the vent hose.
Tom is correct, weigh the trailer. Is the 880 pounds for the trailer, shipping weight or actual weight as currently rigged?
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| DelawareDan |
Posted on 06/15/07 - 6:51 AM
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You definitely should get the old fuel out of there before filling the tanks. Good point that the fuel is suspect. I like the lawnmower method of "disposal," if the fuel looks burnable (if you saw my mower, you'd understand!). You can weigh the fuel you take out and subtract it from your total. Weigh the receiving container first, and then again with the fuel in there.
Bottom line is you're going to get this thing in the water, hopefully soon, and some of the stuff you're worrying about now ain't gonna happen, and other things will come up! All in all, I imagine you're going to have a blast.
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| Derwd24 |
Posted on 06/15/07 - 7:52 AM
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Thanks Kamie and Dan. The previous owner has what I believe are 2 of the plastic 12+ gallon tanks aft of the leaning post, and one larger 24+ gallon tank inside the super console (he must have had to lift the console to get it in there), so he had about 50 gal. capacity that way.
The trailer is new from the factory and those are their numbers stock. I had them add 3 keel rollers, and that's it for options. I'm going to put on 3 more, but wasn't sure if their brackets would allow the rollers to reach the keel, and I was right, they don't. So I'm going to have to swap for longer brackets anyway. So their three add'l rollers would be an addition of only 25 lbs or so to the factory weight?
Your point is well taken Dan. This being a new boat, and seeming to sit noticably lower in the water, I wanted to get a decent idea of what I'm starting with. I'd like to refurbish the boat over the winter, but want to make sure it's worth it. She has a lot of interior cracking and I'm going to do a separate post with pictures to get some feedback on that (it's the last bullet I have to dodge!). So all this is mainly to get a baseline and see where to go from here.
The bottom side and other needed repairs will happen and she'll hit the water, hopefully sooner rather than later, with the weight issue and reason she's sitting lower accounted for or not!
Edited by Derwd24 on 06/15/07 - 7:53 AM |
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| Derwd24 |
Posted on 06/17/07 - 9:05 AM
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Well I drilled my holes every few feet up the side of the keel yesterday to check for water in the hull and though there is some in there and is still slowly dripping, I haven't had very much volume at all (maybe 2 shot glasses from each of the 3 holes at the stern end). Not sure what the time to quantity ratio usually is, but I thought it good that I didn't have any streaming out?
I have to admit, curiousity got the best of me while I was doing this and I tried your experiment Jeff with the low pressure air injection to see if I could induce more water flow out an adjacent hole. I hooked the air hose up to the middle keel hole and set the pressure to 5 PSI. It had a tiny bit of an effect on the next hole aft, which was about 2.5 to 3' away, but not a lot and it didn't last more than a minute if that. So I ramped up to 8-9 PSI and couldn't get anything else to happen. The interesting thing is the hole in the spray rail that I think let most of the water in initially (which I also opened up and is completely dry after the winter) is closer than the hole I drilled, but the hole I had the air hose hooked up to did a very good job at holding the pressure, so I think I can conclude that delamination isn't an issue (in that area anyway). But I just wanted to let you know of my attempt, would have been great if it worked! The conundrum continues...! If anyone has any more suggestions like Jeff's I'd be glad to give it a try while I still have the holes open and dripping.
Edited by Derwd24 on 06/17/07 - 9:16 AM |
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| DelawareDan |
Posted on 06/18/07 - 4:53 AM
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Try a hairdryer to warm a spot between two holes. Maybe the third theory Tom enumerated (the vapor transfer theory) explains my experience with the anchor locker.
Flipped my boat yesterday to work on the bottom and had another surprise. By the bow where the rubrail would go, water started seeping from a tiny opening. It stopped after an hour. losing maybe a half a cup of water. So I drilled the rubrail area in 6 test spots. Overnight, nothing came out of these holes.
Looked at pics of your boat again, and boy, she's a beaut. Keep us updated on your progress!
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| Derwd24 |
Posted on 06/18/07 - 6:35 AM
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Thanks for the compliment Dan!
I was thinking last night how I'd go about filling my test holes with epoxy if they're still wet as I think some of them would drip slowly for weeks... I was going to break out the hairdryer for that, so I'll give your suggestion a go. I remember working with some thickened epoxy many years back that inadvertnetly got wet and boy did it get hot!
Had the same experience you did at the bow, but mine was at the transom. Pulled the transducer as there were many small unfilled holes in that area, and as I was sanding to remove the bottom paint to prep for the patch, noticed when the area was warm from the sun, a few other small areas that were weeping on the other side of the engine... Did the same as you with the test holes and got pretty much the same result.
BTW, was reading Joe's article on transom hole repair and he answered another question as the ground plate for the gas tank on the transom was painted over with bottom paint and I didn't think it should be, Joe confirmed it in his article. Yet another good day on the WhalerCentral site!
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| DelawareDan |
Posted on 06/18/07 - 5:00 PM
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I'm not sure that water will make the epoxy hot... someone jump in here if I'm mistaken... the most common thing in my experience (which is not that much!) is when a big blob of epoxy is applied all at once. Thinner layers dissipate the heat. That's why you don't want to build up a deep area too quickly. I think Joe mentions that in his article, or another one. (I ditto your appreciation of the wealth of quality material here!)
For example, if there was a fair amount of foam missing from your holes, I wouldn't fill it with epoxy unless I did it in several steps. Probably would use bondo (body filler) which sets up quickly, and then patch the inside and outside with epoxy and cloth. By the way, epoxy is not compatible with mat (chopped strand), which has a binder to hold it together instead of the weave.
I agree about the hairdryer. Run it all night if necessary. (Make sure it's not going to melt anything!) Dry is good!
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| Derwd24 |
Posted on 06/18/07 - 6:35 PM
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Thanks Dan. As an approximation, where would you draw the line on thickness of epoxy, 1/4"? Was also thinking that I drilled 3/8" holes to check for water up the side of the keel and was going to inject them with thickened epoxy (wasn't sure how deep to dril so I went about 2.5" in, probably too deep?). Then I remembered how you used the spray foam from the Depot to reattach your deck, am thinking I could use that to fill my test holes almost all the way, then top off with a bit of thickened epoxy?
And finally... Since the hairdryer seems like a point source of heat, was considering using a strip electric heater I use to take the chill off the sun porch in the late fall, under the boat to get some heat up along the keel. It's about 5' long and thin so it would cover the rear section of the keel, which is where I got the drips from. I could start far away and raise it to adjust the heat, unless you think the moving air from the hair dryer is a key component? I'm sure there's some convection movement, but the hairdryer is like a cyclone in comparison!
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| DelawareDan |
Posted on 06/18/07 - 6:49 PM
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1/4 inch is a good limit... don't think you can go wrong with that
definitely experiment with the strip heater.... you may solve the conundrum, and become famous for your discovery! The blowing hairdryer would seem to get the heat in the hole itself better (or as they spell it around here, the "whole" -- something to do with Whaler?)
don't worry about the depth (you worry too much!) you can put whatever you want in there, as long as you have a plug of epoxy maybe half an inch deep. Kamie suggested pushing some epoxy wetted cloth in the holes with a pencil. That's what I'm going to do.
You're doing great! 
Nothing like a Whaler.... not even a Carolina Skiff!
Edited by DelawareDan on 06/18/07 - 6:52 PM |
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| Derwd24 |
Posted on 06/18/07 - 7:17 PM
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Thanks Dan, I appreciate the encouragement! I'll try the heater and let you know how it goes. I've done just a little fiberglass/epoxy work in the past, add in the Whaler foam construction, and it's a new dimension for me. But I really like developing new skills and appreciate everyone's guidance. Most of the nervousness comes from the fact that this isn't just any boat, it's the one I've always wanted.
And you're right, there is NOTHING like a Whaler. Every time I look out the window and see the boat, I think to myself a long slow Yeaaaaaahhhh....!
Edited by Derwd24 on 06/18/07 - 7:23 PM |
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| DelawareDan |
Posted on 06/18/07 - 7:25 PM
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I know the feeling
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