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keel damage
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| iankeller |
Posted on 05/04/09 - 9:36 PM
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I'm on the verge of buying an '81 Montauk, but there is one bit of hull damage that worries me a bit. The front of the keel, the part that would hit bottom first if you were beaching it, is beat up a bit. Over about 18" or so it looks as if there is maybe 1/8" worn away. The bottom (including the entire area in question) is painted with black ablative paint so I can't tell exactly what I'm looking at. I would say that the area in question is slightly, ever so slightly, softer than the unaffected part of the keel further towards the bow.
Is there any chance that the foam core has been compromised? Does anyone know how thick the fiberglass is there? Is there any way to tell what's up without removing the paint? And, more importantly, what is the worst case scenario here? It doesn't look line new damage, which means that whatever it is it isn't rapidly deteriorating. And it wasn't caused by a single event, it looks more like repeated wear.
The hull is otherwise in good shape. Some green line separation that was repaired a few years ago but seems to be holding fine. Nothing else to quibble about for a boat that is pushing 30.
Please lend your thoughts...
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| Phil T |
Posted on 05/05/09 - 3:30 AM
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Ian -
What you describe is often referred to as "keel rash" and is caused by a improperly setup trailer or frequent beaching.
While the gel coat is very thin, the fiberglass is thicker. It is possible and likely the fiberglass has been worn through to expose foam. Several candidate Montauk's I looked at years ago had this same damage. Some had the gel coat worn off, others had damage to the foam. One hull was so bad it had barnacles growing in the gash.
The bad news is, once water enters the foam it is extremely diffuicult to get it out.
The good news is the repairing the damage is a straight forward DIY job.
To get a real assessment, you will need to remove some of the paint and probe the area. Not sure a seller will want you to do this.
With the soft (no pun intended) boat market, it is up to you on whether you want to purchase this boat or pass over it and find a better candidate.
If you really like this candidate, you can factor this repair into your negotiated price.
1992 Outrage 17 I
2019 E-TEC 90, Viper 17 2+
2018 Load Rite Elite 18280096VT |
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| mattgeiger |
Posted on 05/05/09 - 3:40 AM
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I think Whaler was well aware of the years of beaching and trailering would be expected, so a bit of wear here on a 28 year old boat would not worry me. Bottom paint is not a barrier coat - meaning it won't seal out - or in water. I would just look for signs of water coming from within that area.
Mine was worn when I bought it, though there was no bottom paint. The keel was worn down flat (about the width of a penny) to the green fiberglass for about 12", and there were some gelcoat gouges on either side. The gelcoat does seem thicker in this area. When I bought the boat,and for the last 15 months, there were never any signs of water dripping from here. I recently built the area back up with Spectrum Gel Coat patch. I suppose I'll probably put a good ding in it the next time I go out 
Edited by mattgeiger on 05/05/09 - 3:42 AM
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| CES |
Posted on 05/05/09 - 3:42 AM
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Once yourepair the keel be sure to put some sort of rubber "Keel Guard" protector on the keel to keep from wearing down your keel again.
Cliff
1966 13' Sport with a 1993 40hp Yamaha 2 Smoker |
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| iankeller |
Posted on 05/05/09 - 8:35 AM
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Now that I know what it's called I Googled 'keel rash' and know what I'm dealing with - thanks for the tip. It doesn't seem like that big of a deal and it looks like an older injury, meaning the current trailer setup is probably not making it worse. At its widest I'd say it's about 3/8" to 1/2" - not trivial but not worse than what's mentioned above by mattgeiger either.
So here are my questions:
- If it's not draining water then it's not urgent but should be patched at some point. If it is draining water then I'm never going to get it all out and using it this summer will only make matters worse. Is this correct?
- How difficult is it to remove the bottom paint entirely? I'd consider doing this anyway since it's been painted over many times and since I'll be trailering it there's no need for antifouling in the first place.
- If I get the bottom paint off, and make the keel repair, how much gel coating would have to be redone? I'm pretty handy but I know nothing about fiberglass and boat hulls.
- In spite of my handiness (or perhaps because of it) I'm overloaded with projects at the moment so I would consider paying someone to do this for me. Any idea what it would cost?
I do like this candidate very much. The seller is exactly the kind of previous owner everyone wants. The motor is a '99 Mercury 90HP that seems to be in excellent condition. There are a few very minor spider cracks, and one large one on the front edge of the anchor well but that doesn't really bother me. Repaired green line separation that seems to be holding fine after several years. All around good, except for that keel rash...
Thoughts welcome.
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| Barryg |
Posted on 05/05/09 - 10:48 AM
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Ian , I am removing my bottom paint on my Outrage. I have tried all kinds of strip rpoducts with not too much luck. I guess I will dress up like a snow man and hit it with the sander. In some spots that I have tested the gel coat has turned out very nice with wet sanding and buffing then wax. I would realy not want to do this again. THere are too many Montauks out there without bottom paint not to keep looking.
I would try looking inland . BG
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| drandlett |
Posted on 05/05/09 - 5:01 PM
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You mention the bottom paint is abblative.... you could just sand around the area you want to repair, make the repair and use the boat. The more use it gets, the more the paint will begin to slowly wash off.
Altough I've never done this, it seems it could only help in the effort. If nothing else when you do decide it is time to remove every spec of paint there would be less to remove.
Edited by drandlett on 05/05/09 - 5:02 PM |
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| iankeller |
Posted on 05/05/09 - 9:48 PM
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As far as I know the top coat is ablative, but I don't know about what's underneath. I'm hung up on this issue - everything else about the boat is excellent for me to cut my teeth on but I really don't want to have to get into repairing anything on the hull in my first year.
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| theo |
Posted on 05/06/09 - 7:41 AM
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One thing you might try is to tap on the hull with a hard rubber mallet. The sound changes as you pass over damaged areas if the damage is significant. It should be pretty uniform as you move lengthwise along the keel. You should also hear a pattern as you move side to side across the keel. Check it in solid areas first, then check the suspect area.
I'm not positive this will work with that hull. I used it on a non-Whaler to get a feel for some damage from hitting driftwood at speed.
You can also check for soft spots by physically pushing on the suspect area with something non-marring (like the head of a hard rubber mallet). And if it was me, I might be poking around with my pocket knife some too. HTH
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| iankeller |
Posted on 05/06/09 - 8:06 AM
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I did tap along the edge with a hammer and there is a slight though noticeable difference between the good and affected areas. I guess that should be expected if there is 1/8-1/4" of keel worn away.
If there is enough keel rash to have allowed water to penetrate the foam, how extensive of a repair are we talking? Is this something that would take an afternoon or several days?
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| theo |
Posted on 05/06/09 - 10:05 AM
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I'm probably not the right guy to answer that. My opinion is that if there's water getting in, the least you need to do is seal it back up. You could just smear sealant onto it and go boating. If you need more repair than that you could patch it with fiberglass in an afternoon and go boating.
Come Winter you could sand the paint off, drill holes to check for water, build the keel back up with fiberglass, and feather the gel coat back in, all at a leisurely pace.
My brothers and I put a lot of use into a 13' in our youth. We beached that boat for years and years and never did wear a hole in it. (Rocky, windward shores were a different story though!)
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| iankeller |
Posted on 05/06/09 - 10:28 AM
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Thanks for the suggestion - what kind of sealant would be used for a temporary fix like that? I'm really torn about this - I like everything about the boat but the keel rash, and from stories like yours about beaching a boat for years and years without causing a problem make me think this must have really gone through hell many years ago.
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| theo |
Posted on 05/06/09 - 11:57 AM
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Now I'm stepping futher out on my limb. You'll be seeing me flat on my back on the gound as soon as the limb breaks!
If sealant is all it needs I would use something like 3M 4200 and be careful not to run the boat up onto the beach very hard. If you do grind some of it off you can paste some more on.
Warning! You should know I tend to be optimistic about my own abilities to fix just about anything.  So if this was my purchase I wouldn't let it kill the deal. Say, for example, that the foam under that 18" of keel is waterlogged and rotten and someone did a half-baked repair on it. You might end up having to cut a half inch by two foot section out with a saw or grinder, gouge out the rotten foam, refill it with spray foam or similar, and repair the hole with fiberglass. You could then feather in some gel coat, repaint that section, and add a keel guard. That's two weekends in my feebly optimistic brain.
The bottom line is it's your money and I'm just another stranger with an opinon!
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| Phil T |
Posted on 05/06/09 - 2:30 PM
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Ian -
Both of my boats (1987 Montauk, 1991 Outrage 17) had keel rash.
Montauk keel
Outrage 17 keel
On both, the gel was gone and the fiberglass worn so it was flat. Neither went through to the foam.
I think in 3 hrs you can sand off the paint to get a better sense of it. Drill one or two small holes and see if drips. Use the fast cure Marine-tex, a two part epoxy and you are set to go for the season.
In the fall, you can grind it out, allow any water to be removed and then re-apply Marine tex in the spring. At that time, you can install the keel guard.
I have done the repair on my Outrage and am waiting for warmer temperatures to do the keel guard. While the Marine Tex is white and does not match the gelcoat it's a non-issue since it will be covered by the keel guard.
1992 Outrage 17 I
2019 E-TEC 90, Viper 17 2+
2018 Load Rite Elite 18280096VT |
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| iankeller |
Posted on 05/06/09 - 6:14 PM
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Phil, thanks for linking to those photos - very helpful advice though it's a little hard to get a sense of scale. Can you tell me how wide those keel rashes were? The flat portion is about 1/2" wide on the one I am looking at. If it's damage to the fiberglass only I would definitely buy it, but if water has penetrated the hull I would be really bummed.
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| Phil T |
Posted on 05/06/09 - 6:34 PM
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The Montauk had it worse.
At it's widest, it was 1/2 inch wide. Keep in mind, the keel is rounded. If you ground it down, there is a good chance you could get 1/2 inch before getting to the foam.
Poking a pen in the middle of the width will tell you if it is through or close to being through the foam.
Was this boat moored at a slip or mooring for the entire season? If so, you may want to bite the bullet and find another boat.
Go with your gut and not the keyboard advice from a bunch of whaler gonzos (I am a great expample) who spend too much time at the computer and not enough on the water.
1992 Outrage 17 I
2019 E-TEC 90, Viper 17 2+
2018 Load Rite Elite 18280096VT |
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| iankeller |
Posted on 05/06/09 - 8:33 PM
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It's trailered now and has been for at least the last 4 years that this owner has had it and I would think longer. I assume you bring that up because if it was moored then there would be more water intrusion. From the looks of it the damage was probably not from beaching but from going on and off a bad trailer. I'm speculating here but I would imagine beaching damage to be shorter, more isolated and maybe more erratic. This seems like more even and consistent wear over a longer piece of the keel.
I'm on the fence...
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| MW |
Posted on 05/07/09 - 2:18 AM
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A "tough call" since we can't see the hull but, is there any water blisters visible on the bottom paint ? In general, if the water got in that way, it will want to come out that way. When I got my boat (sport 15) I bought it in water, a quick 15 minute ride and I wanted the boat, after I hauled it I saw a small 1/4" gash near the keel, I used it all summer, when I hauled in the Fall, I cleaned it up, applied "marine tex", good to go, repainted the bottom in Spring. I've never had any keel problem's and we beach a lot (the whaler "brat's" want to stop at every 6' piece of sand sticking out of the water at high tide, and of course, I do it), you might want to add the keel guard as that model is "heavier" than mine for "Beaching". I would go with my "GUT" instinct like "Phil" said (a hard decisicion when you really want the boat). How long has this boat been for sale ? Any "Whaler" in good shape will get snapped up fairly quickly in a sale, you have to keep looking, and be "Sharp" w/ wallet ready while on the "HUNT" for a Whaler, the competition is "GOOD", you have to be "BETTER". Good Luck on the "HUNT" !
* Hunting tip: When negotiating with the "Seller", always produce the "Cabbage" $$$ while negotiating the deal, and watch the "EYES" zoom in on it. It carry's much more weight than a check. The seller of my boat wanted $3500, I got the boat for $3,152. 47 cent's and a comb. (it was everything in my pocket).
Matt |
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| iankeller |
Posted on 05/08/09 - 1:53 PM
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After much debate, internal and otherwise, I decided to take the plunge. I will pick her up on Monday or Tuesday. As a first-time owner I'm sure you'll be hearing from me again the next time I'm in need of advice. Thanks again to all of you. Cheers.
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| whalerman |
Posted on 05/08/09 - 5:37 PM
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Congrats on your purchase!!! you won't be dissapointed. Patch it for the summer and enjoy it!! While boating this summer start planning your repair. If in dought, ask at WC. We've all been where you are now. ENJOY!!
THOM : 1999 Outrage 18, 2012 E-TEC 150, 2012 EZ Loader trailer |
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