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Outrage length question
donp	#1  Posted on 10/03/08 - 9:20 AM
Member Posts: 222 Comments: 0 Joined: 08/12/08	Between 1986 and 1987 BW changed the length of the Outrage 20' from 19-10” to 20-3”. Does anyone know the reason why? Edited by Joe Kriz on 10/03/08 - 7:00 PM
Joe Kriz	#2  Posted on 10/03/08 - 10:59 AM
Site Owner Personal Page Personal Album Photo Albums Project Albums Posts: 11447 Comments: 452 Joined: 03/18/05	The early 20 Outrage was the V-20 hull and then changed to the newer style hull in 1986. The 2 hulls are completely different. http://www.whalercentral.com/userphot...album_id=9
Phil T	#3  Posted on 10/03/08 - 12:05 PM
Administrator Personal Page Personal Album Project Albums Posts: 7043 Comments: 6 Joined: 03/26/05	In helping a member look for a used Outrage 20 I learned about both the V-20 and Outrage 20. The V-20 hull had less deadrise in the stern. If you click on the photo Joe linked to (making it large) you can see this in detail. Owners say the ride is comparable/a bit better to a classic Montauk. The Outrage 20 has a similar hull design as the Outrage 18 and 22. 1992 Outrage 17 I 2019 E-TEC 90, Viper 17 2+ 2018 Load Rite Elite 18280096VT
Joe Kriz	#4  Posted on 10/03/08 - 12:20 PM
Site Owner Personal Page Personal Album Photo Albums Project Albums Posts: 11447 Comments: 452 Joined: 03/18/05	Besides the exterior of the hull, you can readily tell by the interior. The V-20 has removable bow steps and only one forward locker. [img]http://www.whalercentral.com/images/ppimages/3564/bow.jpg[/img] The newer Outrage 20 has 4 forward lockers and non-removable steps. [img]http://www.whalercentral.com/images/ppimages/155/forward-lockers.jpg[/img]
Blackduck	#5  Posted on 10/03/08 - 1:34 PM
Member Personal Page Posts: 519 Comments: 0 Joined: 02/25/06	I think they wanted to make the boat bigger.
Finnegan	#6  Posted on 10/03/08 - 6:07 PM
Member Posts: 1926 Comments: 16 Joined: 05/02/08	The last model year of the original "V" 2nd generation Outrage 20 was 1984. In 1985 model year, they introduced the new 20 Outrage, really a 22 Outrage hull with 2'0" cut off the stern end. The reason was to improve the ride and give it the nicer bow area of the 22. I talked with Bob Dougherty about this change a while ago. He told me the original V-20 was done with only a 12 degree deadrise, as they were concerned about losing the famous lateral stability that the original 1st generation Outrages had (the "banana" hulls). Soon they found out that this was a harder riding hull than expected, and hence the deeper vee's of the later 22's, 25's and 18's. The later 20's were never big sellers, as they were only slightly lighter in weight than the 22's, and only $1300 less in price. Most buyers simply went for the 22 because of this.
Joe Kriz	#7  Posted on 10/03/08 - 6:25 PM
Site Owner Personal Page Personal Album Photo Albums Project Albums Posts: 11447 Comments: 452 Joined: 03/18/05	Finn, I think you will find with a little more research that 1986 was a transition year. http://www.whalercentral.com/articles...icle_id=19 I have seen 1985 Outrage V-20's ... Just can't find photos at this time. I have seen 1986 V-20 specs in the price catalogs from Whaler so I think 1986 is the transition year. See this other thread: http://www.whalercentral.com/forum/vi...#post_8080 Edited by Joe Kriz on 10/03/08 - 7:03 PM
Tom W Clark	#8  Posted on 10/03/08 - 7:29 PM
Member Personal Page Posts: 4280 Comments: 7 Joined: 09/30/05	The last year of production for the original Outrage 20 was 1985. The first model year for the new 22 foot based Outrage 20 was 1986. The actual date of transition is unclear (though it could easily be determined with a call to Chuck Bennett) but it is between August 1985 and February 1986 which puts it squarely within the 1986 model year. Larry is correct, however, that the newer Outrage 20 is nothing but a shortened Outrage 22 with greater deadrise. It should also be pointed out that it is not correct to call a 1984 or 1985 Outrage 20 a "V 20". That name was dropped in 1983 though the boat remained the same. Edited by Tom W Clark on 10/03/08 - 7:30 PM
Joe Kriz	#9  Posted on 10/03/08 - 7:49 PM
Site Owner Personal Page Personal Album Photo Albums Project Albums Posts: 11447 Comments: 452 Joined: 03/18/05	Tom, I don't see how you think Larry is correct. He clearly states: The last model year of the original "V" 2nd generation Outrage 20 was 1984. That is NOT correct. 1984 was not the last year of the V-20 style hull even though the name was changed. You state the last year is 1985. That is close. 1986 seems to be the transition year... There may have been a few 1986 V-20 made before they changed to the newer Outrage 20 hull later in the model year. Name calling... Yes. 1983 to 1985 Outrage 20 (V-20) could have the V-20 in parenthesis as the hull was not changed, only the name. Edited by Joe Kriz on 10/03/08 - 7:57 PM
Finnegan	#10  Posted on 10/03/08 - 8:37 PM
Member Posts: 1926 Comments: 16 Joined: 05/02/08	I really don't want to get into a shouting match with you guys. That was not my purpose. But as you may or may not know, in Feb of 1986 I specially ordered a brand new 18 Outrage which was delivered to me in early May of 1986. This boat was really a second choice for me, as I really wanted the new design 20 Outrage, since it was only $1300 more than the 18. Somewhere I even have a photo of the boat taken in Feb of 1985, with a super console in it. I had been following the new 20 Outrage since Jan of 1985, when I saw my first one at my dealer in Waukegan IL, right next door to the OMC plant. The boat was shown at the Chicago Boat show in Jan 1985 if I remember correctly, since that is what got me interested in this new hull to begin with. I remember being surprised by the boat, as it wasn't shown in any catalog at the time, and was kind of a "quiet" changeover. After contemplating it for a year, and finally unable to figure out how to get the 20 into the garage I had, I settled for the 18 instead, a year later. I also remember that when I ordered my 18, the dealer STILL had the new 20, and tried to sell it to me at that time. With the big super console in it, a complete misfit, the boat had no room except in the bow, and they couldn't sell it easily. Now maybe what we have here is a 1985 mid MODEL year change over, as BW often did. The V-20 was also a 1978 mid-year introduction, as evidenced by the flyer I sent Tom for the CD. As an intended buyer of the new 20, I remember this situation well. I doubt if you will find any of the old 20's manufactured after Jan 1 1985.
Joe Kriz	#11  Posted on 10/03/08 - 9:34 PM
Site Owner Personal Page Personal Album Photo Albums Project Albums Posts: 11447 Comments: 452 Joined: 03/18/05	Larry, There are NO shouting matches allowed here. There are only discussions and facts as we know them. I have done a lot of research on that model. You can see by one of the links I listed above where we discussed this before here. Year models and what year they were built in obviously can differ. The 1985 model was made from July 1984 to June of 1985. The 1986 model was made from July 1985 to June of 1986. You state above Feb of 1986 and then you state Feb of 1985... Not sure which one is a typo.... Or what year you remember... If you were buying a Whaler in Feb of 1986, then they might have had left over Outrage 20 with the older style (V-20) hull. The price lists generally do not lie.... Check out the 1985 and 1986 Boston Whaler Price Lists... Pay particular attention to the length of the boat along with the fuel tank size in those price lists for 1985 and 1986 Outrage 20. As Tom has pointed out many times, the Boston Whaler Catalogs with photos do not necessarily represent the current model as they may have used older photos. However, the price lists are the most accurate information we can go by and they were updated up to several times a year. I have been specifically keeping my eyes open for an Outrage 20 (V-20) that was built between July and December of 1985 as a 1986 model. Just for the records... The price lists state that this is so but I have not come across one. (which doesn't mean much) I have seen photos of 1985 Outrage 20 (V-20) so the transition was after 1985 model as far as my research leads me. I always recommend that everyone do there own research when possible. Not by memory. It must be written somewhere by the factory and not even listed on this website (using my own research) or any other website. I deal in facts when at all possible. Sometimes we have to fill in and guess at a few of the blanks in between. This is not the case here. I am totally open for more research on this model. That is one reason I always appreciate members submitting their HIN numbers. So we can keep track of certain changes throughout the years. http://www.whalercentral.com/articles...icle_id=19
Tom W Clark	#12  Posted on 10/03/08 - 10:40 PM
Member Personal Page Posts: 4280 Comments: 7 Joined: 09/30/05	Joe, I think you misread what I wrote. Please review. Yes, the price lists are a good guide. The August 1985 price list shows the old Outrage 20 and the February 1986 price list shows the new Outrage 20 which is why I said the transition was between those dates. That makes it the 1986 model year, not the 1985 model year. I saw the new Outrage 20 when it was first introduced. This was at the Los Angeles Boat Show in January of 1986 and I really wanted one back then especially with its new increased 200 HP maximum rating!
Tom W Clark	#13  Posted on 10/03/08 - 11:09 PM
Member Personal Page Posts: 4280 Comments: 7 Joined: 09/30/05	Hair splitting addendum: Whaler dropped the "V-20" name after 1980 so any 1981, 1982, 1983, 1984 or 1985 19'-10" Outrage is properly called "Outrage 20" not "Outrage V-20".
Joe Kriz	#14  Posted on 10/04/08 - 10:27 AM
Site Owner Personal Page Personal Album Photo Albums Project Albums Posts: 11447 Comments: 452 Joined: 03/18/05	Tom, Your conclusion is what I had come up with on this model as we discussed this before. The price list for August of 1985 obviously is for 1986 models so that is why I believe there are probably some 1986 models with the original style (V-20) hull. The price list change in February of 1986 indicates thats when they changed the hull or at least the specifications in the price list. As you stated, in January of 1986 you saw the newer style hull. Larry also states above: But as you may or may not know, in Feb of 1986 I specially ordered a brand new 18 Outrage So, in February of 1986 he was also looking at the newer Outrage 20 hull when he was ended up purchasing the 18'. I am still confused why you said Larry was correct as he clearly stated the last year of the Outrage 20 with the older style V-20 hull was 1984. That clearly is not correct. He also stated: In 1985 model year, they introduced the new 20 Outrage, really a 22 Outrage hull with 2'0" cut off the stern end. We also know this is not correct. That is what thru me for a loop unless I am totally misreading something. If anyone has a 1985 or early 1986 model with the older style (V-20) hull, please let us know and submit your HIN numbers for the record. http://www.whalercentral.com/articles...icle_id=19 We have one perfect example of the newer style hull made in May of 1986 as a 1986 year model. http://www.whalercentral.com/infusion...er_id=1278
Joe Kriz	#15  Posted on 10/04/08 - 11:05 AM
Site Owner Personal Page Personal Album Photo Albums Project Albums Posts: 11447 Comments: 452 Joined: 03/18/05	About the name V-20... I do agree that the Catalogs and the Price List call it the Outrage 20 after they dropped the V-20 badge. However, how would anyone describe the older style hull? 1. If you say older style hull, most people would not know or have to think hard. 2. If you say original style hull, still difficult. 3. If it is described as an Outrage 20 with the V-20 hull, then most people will immediately know what we are talking about. If you read the description in the Whaler Model Specs you will see I describe it as the Outrage 20 with the V-20 hull. http://www.whalercentral.com/userphot...album_id=9 I do not call it the Outrage V-20 anywhere in the above list. Doing it this way should make it clear to anyone looking for this type of Outrage 20. Unless someone has a better name or description, I will stick by what I have. Regardless of name, the older models still have the V-20 hull.
Tom W Clark	#16  Posted on 10/04/08 - 11:25 AM
Member Personal Page Posts: 4280 Comments: 7 Joined: 09/30/05	Joe Kriz wrote: I am still confused why you said Larry was correct as he clearly stated the last year of the Outrage 20 with the older style V-20 hull was 1984. That clearly is not correct. Joe -- What I said was: Larry is correct, however, that the newer Outrage 20 is nothing but a shortened Outrage 22 with greater deadrise. Larry is correct in this point. The newer Outrage 20 is nothing but a shortened version of the 22. They used the mold of the 22 to create this new hull but gave it the full width splashwell of the other Whaler models of the time.
Joe Kriz	#17  Posted on 10/04/08 - 11:32 AM
Site Owner Personal Page Personal Album Photo Albums Project Albums Posts: 11447 Comments: 452 Joined: 03/18/05	OK.... I can agree with that. I was reading that you said he was correct in stating that the 1984 was the last year of the Outrage 20 with the V-20 hull..... I think all the readers should now be able to understand the difference of the 2 hulls and when they were produced and for what model years. Still looking for that one person that owns a 1986 Outrage 20 with the older V-20 hull.... Maybe yes, Maybe no..... Or, a person that owns a 1986 Outrage 20 that was built in July of 1985 that has the newer style hull. Either one above should tells us exactly when the hull change was made. Edited by Joe Kriz on 10/04/08 - 11:34 AM
Hibar	#18  Posted on 10/04/08 - 3:01 PM
Member Posts: 2 Comments: 0 Joined: 10/04/08	A note on Outrage 20's, all that I have ever seen in the NY metro area had solid SS handrails no jointed pieces. They are quite scarce because all the dealers stocked 18's and 22's. I owned a1981 revenge V 20 and dispite 300# extra pounds up front from the cuddy and bulkhead lockers it still porpesed had to add a doelfin to my 150 nad keep it trimed in. The NJ Marine police had a lot of commerical version Outrage 20's back then. As I recall the boat had a lot fewer thru hulls than the 22 version. I have all the catalogs and some price lists from the 80,s. If you ever have the chance to see an 18 on blocks next to a 20 you will see a lot more boat in the 20. Can anybody tell me if the 18 degree hull has the porpesing problem, I fish often on a 22 and that is a grear hull, really the best of what Whalers were. The 24 oops 25 was a tank no disrespect but not light or easly driven, just some observations from a 30 year Whaler guy.
Joe Kriz	#19  Posted on 10/04/08 - 3:48 PM
Site Owner Personal Page Personal Album Photo Albums Project Albums Posts: 11447 Comments: 452 Joined: 03/18/05	The one piece bow rails started approximately in 1988. If older models have the one piece rail, then they have been replaced with the newer style. The problem with the one piece bow rail is shipping. I know my Montauk side rails had been replaced with the one piece units. My prior 1989 Outrage 20 has the one piece bow rail. http://users.sisqtel.net/jkriz/Outrag...age20.html My prior 1989 Outrage 22 Cuddy also had the one piece bow rail which included the pulpit extension. http://users.sisqtel.net/jkriz/Outrag...age22.html I don't have any problems with my Outrage 18' porposing.
donp	#20  Posted on 10/04/08 - 5:46 PM
Member Posts: 222 Comments: 0 Joined: 08/12/08	I have followed this thread closly, but no one commented on when BW drop the teak Gunnels? 1986? Thanks to all who replied.