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Repower to a lower HP?
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| Cy |
Posted on 03/13/18 - 9:04 PM
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1979 Outrage V-20 and tired of trying to get a 1990 Evinrude 150 to run right. Summer use mid coast Maine, fishing with the grand kids and touring the islands. Outrage max hp is 175-180, min 85.
Given a new engine will be worth more than the boat, looking at 115 or 135 hp motors to save a few bucks. Is a 115hp 'too' small?
Also looking at weight with the current E150 at 385lbs (plus oil), which makes the non G2 E-tecs attractive. Being cheap, I want economical cruise and not high speeds. Not worried about resale.
Thanks for any suggestions.
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| Phil T |
Posted on 03/14/18 - 4:55 AM
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Cy -
Remind us when you go out, typically, how full is the boat (people, fuel, gear etc) when you cruise?
Do you cover alot of mileage? There are 1000 islands alone in Casco Bay.
1992 Outrage 17 I
2019 E-TEC 90, Viper 17 2+
2018 Load Rite Elite 18280096VT |
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| JRP |
Posted on 03/14/18 - 5:07 AM
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Cy wrote:
1979 Outrage V-20 and tired of trying to get a 1990 Evinrude 150 to run right. Summer use mid coast Maine, fishing with the grand kids and touring the islands. Outrage max hp is 175-180, min 85.
Given a new engine will be worth more than the boat, looking at 115 or 135 hp motors to save a few bucks. Is a 115hp 'too' small?
Also looking at weight with the current E150 at 385lbs (plus oil), which makes the non G2 E-tecs attractive. Being cheap, I want economical cruise and not high speeds. Not worried about resale.
Thanks for any suggestions.
I will be interested to hear what others think about dropping down to a 115 HP engine on an Outrage V20. My gut feeling is this will be less than optimal power. A V6 135 or I4 140/150 would seem to be a better choice.
Here are what I consider to be your best options:
G1 ETEC 135/150 V6 2.6L 25" = 433 lbs (plus oil tank)
G1 ETEC 115 HO V4 1.7L 25" = 405 lbs (plus oil tank)
Suzuki DF140A I4 2.0L 25" = 405 lbs
Mercury 150 Fourstroke I4 3.0L 25" = 465 lbs
Mercury 115 CT Fourstroke I4 2.1L 25" = Est. 375 lbs (20'= 363 lbs)
From the list above, the Merc 150 Fourstroke and the G1 ETEC 135/150 would be the highest power options. I would give the edge to the 2-stroke ETEC, but the Merc would cost less.
If you decide to go with the lower powered option, then you'd be choosing between the G1 ETEC 115 HO, the Merc 115 CT Fourstroke, and the Suzuki DF140A.
The Merc is the lightest option among these, and offers the highest displacement in a modern design. The ETEC 115 HO would offer the most torque, and the Suzuki would offer the most top end HP (but probably not by as much as the cowl might suggest.) Both are heavier than the Merc.
Shop around, and factor good dealer service and availability into your decision. There's also the possibility of finding a good used motor, whch often makes sense for an older boat repower.
19 Outrage II (1992) |
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| Alan Gracewski |
Posted on 03/14/18 - 11:35 AM
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Cy, you will probably get hundreds of recommendations for power, as that seems to be a very popular source for comment. That said, I will offer 3 tidbits:
1. In the 1979 Whaler brochure, it lists in the spec section a minimum horsepower of 85 and a maximum of 180 for the V-20.
2. Phil T's question about loading and use are key. A heavy load or grandkids that want to waterski or ski-board (if they tire of fishing) would indicate at least a 150 like you have now. If 20 knot cruising with a light load, then you might be happy with 115 hp.
3. I have a 19' Revenge, a bit lighter than your V-20 but similar. When we used to pull skiers, we had a 150 Evinrude and it was perfect. Now, later in life, we have a 135 Honda that does just fine even with 6 people aboard. But it won't easily pull up a skier with 6 aboard like the old 150 did.
I think that aside from the cost (which one forgets over the years of use) that most people don't regret more power than the minimum. Good luck in your decision!!
Al
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| Cy |
Posted on 03/15/18 - 3:32 PM
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Thanks all for the replies. Yes Phil, the islands are the lure in the Muscongus Bay to Castine area. Gunkholing holds more interest than offshore fishing or water skiing, plus the 5-6nm to Monhegan. I like the E-tec story but have all the majors nearby.
I usually arrive on scene late May/June and head back to Texas late September. Don't see having more than 5-6 onboard and I am the only one who has water skied - primarily touring/island visits and light fishing.
Also need to replace my 1980s EzLoader and a smaller motor's savings makes that less painful.
And some family urging for a summer home addition, lots of holes to spend the money.
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| Marko888 |
Posted on 03/16/18 - 8:23 AM
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As a former Outrage 18 and current Outrage 22 owner, I would not go lower than 135hp on your Outrage 20. I truly believe that any less would be very disappointing. There would be nothing worse than a big expense resulting in poor performance.
To save some money, buy a used engine from a reputable dealer, who is willing to provide a warranty on the used engine.
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| Cy |
Posted on 03/17/18 - 9:36 AM
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Too bad I am not closer to Florida where more prices are shown online. A Suzuki 140 appears to offer the most hp/$ at $9,600. The Etec 115 at $11,845 is only $2K less than an Etec 150 for $13,815, with the 135 and 135HO in between. All in the low 400 lbs range.
Is the Etec 135 for $$12,950 that much better than a Suzuki for ~$3K less? I know the early spring pricing will change by the time I am ready to buy.
Yes, also looking at used, Boston Harbor Marine has several 2002-2004 pre Etec on CL in the $3-$4K range, plus an occasional Etec. Other than running and good compression there is no warranty, just a suggestion for a mechanic's inspection.
I will worry about installation costs when down to the final candidates.
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| JRP |
Posted on 03/17/18 - 11:10 AM
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Cy wrote:
Too bad I am not closer to Florida where more prices are shown online. A Suzuki 140 appears to offer the most hp/$ at $9,600. The Etec 115 at $11,845 is only $2K less than an Etec 150 for $13,815, with the 135 and 135HO in between. All in the low 400 lbs range.
Is the Etec 135 for $$12,950 that much better than a Suzuki for ~$3K less? I know the early spring pricing will change by the time I am ready to buy.
Yes, also looking at used, Boston Harbor Marine has several 2002-2004 pre Etec on CL in the $3-$4K range, plus an occasional Etec. Other than running and good compression there is no warranty, just a suggestion for a mechanic's inspection.
I will worry about installation costs when down to the final candidates.
Cy,
The ETEC 135HO or 150 will have significantly more grunt than the Suzuki DF140A. You are comparing a 2.6L V6 2-stroke against a 2.0L I4 4-stroke.
This is not to say the Suzuki is a bad engine. And its weight (405 lbs) is very attractive. (The 25" ETEC 135/150 is 433 lbs before the oil tank.)
But at those prices, I would be looking very hard at the Merc 150 Fourstroke. This 3.0L I4 is a powerhouse in its class, the 25" weighs 465 lbs, and can be purchased for a fair bit less than the ETEC. See Mercury pricing at Jacos Marine or Eds Marine Superstore for comparison shopping.
19 Outrage II (1992) |
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| Cy |
Posted on 03/18/18 - 9:23 AM
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Thanks JRP, i had seen Eds but not Jacos. I have a long term Mercury service place near me that doesn't sell new but they be open to installing a new motor. Some positive 4 stroke 150 reviews out there.
Coming from the sailing world, large outboards are still a learning experience.
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| gchuba |
Posted on 03/18/18 - 10:03 AM
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Pre Etec Fitches have a questionable history. I personally would not go that direction used. Etecs are interesting because they used the same block for several different horsepowers. The settings determine the HP. They do not have "conversions" available for changing HP. I tracked this because I found an excellent 250hp used but wanted to get the HP lowered because of my hull rating (240hp). The company was amazed because everyone asks to HP up. I am not sure of the blocks used in the 100hp to 175hp Etecs but to me the larger block with the lower HP means less stress on the motor.
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| Weatherly |
Posted on 03/19/18 - 6:11 AM
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Cy: Has your current outboard motor been declared "DNR" (do not resuscitate)? I ask because you may have a fuel contamination issue and/or leaking tank in the belly of your V-20 Outrage. Installing a new outboard will not solve your problem, just make it worse when your new outboard also suffered fuel contamination issues.
To answer your key question: Is a 115 hp too small? No. David Hart of Michigan repowered his 1978 Boston Whaler Outrage V-20 boat with a 115-HP motor. The boat was a 36-MPH boat. I have no idea how much load was in the boat when this performance was reported.
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| Cy |
Posted on 03/20/18 - 12:30 PM
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No, not DNR by a shop, just my annual attempts to fix. Eliminated fuel by using a jerry can on the deck and 100LL (no alcohol). Two year old battery load tested OK but the E150 really wants 13V to crank with any speed. 12.5V has trouble getting through a compression stroke (amps?). Terminal connections are clean, new plugs installed, and bringing a new relay and starter with me this year. Fuel pump probably needs a rebuild as I have both starting and running problems.
If these relatively easy fixes don't help then I am off to a shop. With the new Merc 150 in the $10K range, I am not sure how much to put into fixing a 1990 engine. But the lure of a new engine is a sweet song, especially with grandkids wanting to stay longer.
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| Weatherly |
Posted on 03/21/18 - 8:03 AM
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You really have not eliminated fuel contamination just because you ran your outboard motor with fuel from a jerry can. You need to inspect the below deck tank for contamination. It is easy enough to do with a siphen and length of hose through the inspection port opening. I recommend a compression check on all 6 cylinders. Check the spark and get a voltage reading. When was the last time the carburetors were serviced? You may have sediment in your carburetors, causing poor performance. The sediment in the carbs does not just go away when you run the motor on a portable tank. All of these vital diagnostics are cheap and easy to do yourself. Much less than to cost of a new motor.
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| Cy |
Posted on 03/21/18 - 9:05 PM
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I checked compression and they were OK, not great, 145 +-10. Couldn't get the tank filter out all the way but it looked clean and felt no resistance with light pressure or vacuum. Last time I had auto gas in the main tank I siphoned it out, using the fuel bulb and engine fuel line, and used it in my car and mowers with no issues. Switched to the jerry can to simplify fuel delivery. Engine will idle in the driveway, on a hose, with occasional ~1800 rpm, for 15-20 minutes. Launched with the same jerry can/hose setup and it died in 4-5 minutes. Less if put into gear. Always restarted for the same run cycle
Last summer's the starting difficulty cancelled water tests but it ran fine, once started, in the driveway. So I return this spring with new relay, starter motor, and battery charger. If that doesn't fix things, then the shop visit before going for a replacement.
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| Weatherly |
Posted on 03/22/18 - 6:27 AM
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A reading of 145 with a variant of less than 10 on all six cylinders is good; your engine has a good powerhead. I recommend further diagnostics on your fuel delivery system (VRO/OMS pump working?, primer solenoid, solenoid valve, fuel lines) and your ignition system (inspect/test the stator, coils, spark plug wires). How is the trim/tilt system? Working as it should? Rusty? How is the lower unit/gear case? Any leaks? Gear oil changed annually? Impeller/pump replaced? Prop and skeg intact? Zincs intact?
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| Cy |
Posted on 03/22/18 - 7:29 PM
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The VRO, which so many remove, appears to work fine with lots of smoke on start up and a slight but noticeable drop after several test runs. Tilt goes up and down full range and the hydraulic shafts are clean
Lower unit dumped its grease a few winters ago and I pulled it for a shop reseal. Even have a spare lower unit in a garage corner. New plugs though the old looked fine, not sure about the rest of the ignition but seems to run fairly smoothly after warm up in driveway tests. I can hear the primer solenoid click and it will save a stumbling start.
Frustration level is pretty high, high enough to let a shop take over and high enough to go new. I do appreciate the suggestions and encouragement
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| JRP |
Posted on 03/23/18 - 3:31 AM
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Cy wrote:...
Frustration level is pretty high, high enough to let a shop take over and high enough to go new. I do appreciate the suggestions and encouragement
Life is short. Boating is supposed to be fun. Especially with a boatload of grandkids, there is nothing wrong with just wanting to turn the key and go, without worrying about whether you'll make it back or not.
19 Outrage II (1992) |
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| Cy |
Posted on 03/23/18 - 3:04 PM
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Last year the Day Sailer, with its 1974 6hp Johnson, was the boat I felt confident taking my grandson fishing in the outer harbor. He wants to stay longer this summer and the Whaler will be on the ready line. Probably be his boat someday, why leave him with a problem.
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| Marko888 |
Posted on 03/23/18 - 9:26 PM
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FWIW, I replaced a 1985 150 Johnson on my old Outrage 18 with a brand new Suzuki DF140A. Transformed our boating from constant worry to pure joy. I sold that boat after two seaaons when 4’ itis arrived. No regrets at all, despite it costing some $. Life is too short.
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| Cy |
Posted on 03/28/18 - 8:53 PM
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The idea of a new engine continues to grow. If the current E150 becomes usable for the summer, is there a better time of year to buy new - late summer, boat shows, etc.?
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