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Problem w/ 1988 Johnson120
John Coryea	#1  Posted on 05/24/12 - 5:20 AM
Member Posts: 56 Comments: 0 Joined: 07/12/11	Hello all- I enlisted a marine mechanic to do a riding diagnosis. The engine seems to run well at higher RPM, then may or may not lose power and die, or run at low rpms forever. It doesn't want to run in mid-range. We checked the following: Primer bulb, new on-deck lines, fuel fresh, no water in separator, electrical connections, fuel filter inside cowl, cable adjustments, new NGK plugs We added some Seafoam also. He is suspecting an issue with the VRO unit itself , someone else suggested maybe a vacuum issue in the vro..What are the symptoms of a failing VRO? The engine runs fine, starts right up after it quits. I'll spring for the parts if necessary. New or rebuilt? Hope this is enough info. Today, I will clean all contacts and apply a little dielectric grease. Did the deck in almond Dridek yesterday. It's a nice product Have a great, safe Memorial weekend and remember our vets. Thanks in advance! John (crow) Edited by Tom W Clark on 05/24/12 - 5:57 AM
thegage	#2  Posted on 05/24/12 - 6:31 AM
Member Personal Page Posts: 341 Comments: 1 Joined: 06/25/09	Has the problem been there for a while? Did it just start, for instance when you took the boat out of storage for the season? Were the carbs rebuilt recently? Any evidence of fuel leaking at the VRO? Many original VRO pumps eventually have diaphragm leakage due to ethanol. Also, it could be an issue with the mid-range jet system. I had a similar problem. It turned out to be that the plastic float bowls on the carbs had warped from ethanol. A careful rebuild of the carbs with replacement aluminum bowls, and making certain the plugs over the intermediate passages were well sealed, solved the problem. John K. John Kittredge 1991 16 SL - 2013 E-TEC 90
John Coryea	#3  Posted on 05/24/12 - 5:51 PM
Member Posts: 56 Comments: 0 Joined: 07/12/11	John- Thanks for the advice. I don't really have any history on the engine.. I use non ethanol,but who knows what was used previously. I can pass on your info to the mechanic.. I don't want this to turn into a bottomless pit..it's still an 88. Any thoughts on this? Am I being too pessimistic,or should I be thinking of a newer engine(ouch)? I'm thinking I could put a few grand into this engine and not solve the problem... It runs strong otherwise,and doesn't skip beat . When the engine starts to die,mid range, it responds to pushing in the choke. If I cut back the throttle ,it will run . It seems to start up from cold or hot allright. Also, the power tilt, when all the way up, needs a push, until it gets around 1/4 of the way down. Then it works fine and goes all the way up just another thing(unrelated to the engine running issue.. I can live with that, but that could be another problem down the road. Am I in panic mode? Thanks in advance for any sympathy. All the best, John(crow)
Caseyuconn	#4  Posted on 05/25/12 - 12:25 PM
Member Personal Page Posts: 62 Comments: 0 Joined: 04/02/11	If it does turn out to be a VRO issue a new one could run you 400-500. I just did one on a 2001 motor that was 500. Super easy to do, 30 mins start to finish. If you diagnosis down to the VRO it is possible to remove the entire VRO system, bypass it and pre-mix your fuel which is a low cost and fail safe alternative to the always sketchy VRO. Just a thought.
Joe Kriz	#5  Posted on 05/25/12 - 12:42 PM
Site Owner Personal Page Personal Album Photo Albums Project Albums Posts: 11447 Comments: 452 Joined: 03/18/05	I have never known a VRO to be sketchy.... Pre-mixing fuel can be messy and at times, not very accurate. You will also be running too much oil at idle and low speeds compared to running with a VRO that ratios the oil depending on speed. Personally, I would not consider purchasing a boat that had the VRO disconnected.... unless they were throwing in the motor for free so I could junk it and just keep the boat... I recommend always running and using the VRO unless you are broke or on a college budget and just can't afford to fix it properly.
tedious	#6  Posted on 05/25/12 - 1:10 PM
Member Personal Page Posts: 1072 Comments: 2 Joined: 09/07/08	John, the first thing I would consider is a new mechanic - there's very little chance that the symptoms described could have anything to do with the VRO / fuel pump. The symptom of a failing VRO would be that the motor is getting too much or too little oil. In the one case it would smoke, and in the other you'd burn it up, but it would run fine. If the fuel pump itself had a problem, including with the vacuum connection, it wouldn't be pumping enough fuel, so it might run for a short while at full speed, but then drop off after you'd used up all the fuel in the float bowls. But if that were the problem, you'd be able to run in the midrange - again, possibly until you used up the fuel. Start with the consistent symptom - that it won't run in the midrange at all. The first thing I'd do is a link'n'sync - easy enough to do yourself with the factory service manual, and cheap for a knowledgable mechanic. If that doesn't fix it, and it hasn't been done for a while, rebuild the carbs. Again, pretty easy yourself or for a good mechanic. Good luck! Tim
Blackduck	#7  Posted on 05/25/12 - 1:39 PM
Member Personal Page Posts: 519 Comments: 0 Joined: 02/25/06	Problems like this are almost always related to carburetion. They probably need to be cleaned- about $150 a piece to remove, clean, and reinstall. Walter Reynolds 1973 Boston Whaler 16 Nauset 90 HP Yamaha
contender250	#8  Posted on 05/25/12 - 2:18 PM
Member Posts: 363 Comments: 0 Joined: 10/09/11	I have an 1985 140 and its probably the carbs, these last year Evinrude engines last of the carbs in the 80's,90's are pretty bullet proof. The carbs are very easy to work on, they need to come apart and be cleaned and put back together. The VRO may need a new diaphragm for the fuel side, but not likely I have own my engine since new and have only replaced it once, and I did it just because it was old. However I have done the carbs a couple of times, This new ethanol fuel will eat some parts in the carburetor, and the fuel also dries up and plugs your jets. If it turns out to be the VRO (Highly doubt it) it best to plug it off a just mix your oil/gas. I have been doing this since my engine was new and have never had a problem
Phil T	#9  Posted on 05/25/12 - 2:47 PM
Administrator Personal Page Personal Album Project Albums Posts: 7043 Comments: 6 Joined: 03/26/05	When the engine starts to die,mid range, it responds to pushing in the choke. If I cut back the throttle ,it will run . Have the carbs cleaned by a different mechanic. Often it takes 2 good cleanings to get them really clean. I think your jets are clogged. 1992 Outrage 17 I 2019 E-TEC 90, Viper 17 2+ 2018 Load Rite Elite 18280096VT
tedious	#10  Posted on 05/25/12 - 3:25 PM
Member Personal Page Posts: 1072 Comments: 2 Joined: 09/07/08	John, I missed your second post - the statement Phil quotes nails it. Your motor actually doesn't have a choke, rather a primer. When you push the key in, you're giving a squirt of fuel right into the manifold. The fact that it smooths out when you do that indicates you're running too lean in the midrange. A carb rebuild is indicated. The parts for this are only about $35 per carb if you want to do it yourself, and the manual will run you about $80. I still think you'd be wise to go to a different mechanic - you could indeed spend a lot of money and get nowhere, and it sounds like this guy doesn't really understand motors. You may already know this, but you don't want to run the motor in it's current condition for any length of time - 2 strokes count on the appropriate fuel mixture for lubrication and cooling, and you risk damaging the motor if you continue to run it. Good luck! Tim
John Coryea	#11  Posted on 05/25/12 - 8:00 PM
Member Posts: 56 Comments: 0 Joined: 07/12/11	Thanks to all for the info- Curious- where can I get some carb kits for this engine and possibly replacement floats? What's a link and synch? How long can I run this engine without damage or at all? I was planning on using it this weekend? Definitely don't want to destroy it..So you guys would try to fix the carbs first? The engine does not smoke noticeably i.e. I don't see a trail behind the boat or anything.. I don't want to disable the vro for reasons Joe mentioned..I had ANOTHER mechanic suggest that and he's been doing engines for 40 years I have alot of faith in the knowledge of this forum.. Thanks in advance John(crow)
thegage	#12  Posted on 05/25/12 - 8:40 PM
Member Personal Page Posts: 341 Comments: 1 Joined: 06/25/09	Marineengine. come or iboats.com for rebuild kits. They're pretty inexpensive as it's just gaskets and needle/seat/float. I'll ask again: do you have plastic float bowls? If so, they're black. If you have to replace the bowls with the aluminum ones it begins to get expensive, about $200 to do both (you'll need four new mid-range jets if you put on new bowls). John K. John Kittredge 1991 16 SL - 2013 E-TEC 90
John Coryea	#13  Posted on 05/25/12 - 8:47 PM
Member Posts: 56 Comments: 0 Joined: 07/12/11	the gage- I, nor anyone else, has opened up the carbs to check the floats so don't know..guess that will be the first step..so the guys are saying don't run the engine if I have a possible lean condition? Thanks, John
thegage	#14  Posted on 05/26/12 - 5:15 AM
Member Personal Page Posts: 341 Comments: 1 Joined: 06/25/09	You don't have to take the carbs off, just look at them. The float bowls are the bottom half of the carbs. Yes, if you have a possible lean condition that means the engine isn't getting adequate fuel/oil mixture, and since that's what also lubricates all of the internal engine parts you could burn a piston or trash a bearing. John K. John Kittredge 1991 16 SL - 2013 E-TEC 90
thegage	#15  Posted on 05/26/12 - 5:15 AM
Member Personal Page Posts: 341 Comments: 1 Joined: 06/25/09	You don't have to take the carbs off, just look at them. The float bowls are the bottom half of the carbs. Yes, if you have a possible lean condition that means the engine isn't getting adequate fuel/oil mixture, and since that's what also lubricates all of the internal engine parts you could burn a piston or trash a bearing. John K. John Kittredge 1991 16 SL - 2013 E-TEC 90
kamie	#16  Posted on 05/26/12 - 6:01 AM
Member Personal Page Project Albums Posts: 2975 Comments: 3 Joined: 11/04/05	You can always a decarb with sea foam before you pull them apart. Run a 3 or 6 gallon tank with tripple the normal amount of sea foam. Shut down the engine, let it sit for a couple hours or over night then start it up and burn off the carbon, should smoke like crazy. do it a couple times. You also probably want to run double the sea foam in your regular tank, for awhile, that should help clean out the jets.
John Coryea	#17  Posted on 05/26/12 - 6:02 AM
Member Posts: 56 Comments: 0 Joined: 07/12/11	Thanks John- I'll let her sit at the dock this weekend...I have float bowls on my MG's Su carbs and my bikes..so am I looking for stuck float,warped /cracked float/ sticking needle dirty jets etc? Seems like the direction on the forum is carbs and not the vro. Should I be looking for another engine or try to salvage this one..I don't know how long this one has been run by the previous owner? Thanks, John(crow)
Tom W Clark	#18  Posted on 05/26/12 - 9:29 AM
Member Personal Page Posts: 4280 Comments: 7 Joined: 09/30/05	John -- The symptoms you describe have nothing to do with the VRO system. It is far more likely the fuel system is involved, but keep in mind these particular V-4s were known for very poor midrange. I had a friend with a 1988 Outrage 18 and a 140 Johnson (big brother to your motor) and that motor was fast but it never could hold mid-throttle settings. While my 150 HP V-6 Johnson could cruise all day at 3500, my friends 140 simply would not, it wanted to run at 4500 RPM.
Tom W Clark	#19  Posted on 05/26/12 - 9:32 AM
Member Personal Page Posts: 4280 Comments: 7 Joined: 09/30/05	I should add that the very first thing to do is isolate the problem and I would start by simply running the motor on a portable tank of fresh gas, no additives. Just see if that alone solves the problem. Always start with the simple and obvious things first before tearing things apart.
thegage	#20  Posted on 05/26/12 - 11:57 AM
Member Personal Page Posts: 341 Comments: 1 Joined: 06/25/09	Tom W Clark wrote: but keep in mind these particular V-4s were known for very poor midrange. I had a friend with a 1988 Outrage 18 and a 140 Johnson (big brother to your motor) and that motor was fast but it never could hold mid-throttle settings. While my 150 HP V-6 Johnson could cruise all day at 3500, my friends 140 simply would not, it wanted to run at 4500 RPM. Agreed, but after I really took some care with the carbs on my 1994 V4 it performs quite nicely at just about all throttle settings. John K. John Kittredge 1991 16 SL - 2013 E-TEC 90