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I just read the post of several weeks ago about filling blind holes and redrilling for a late 90s 115 on 16'7" and Tom once again asked why anyone would argue with filling the holes and starting new with the correct pattern. Let me take a crack at this;
1) In order to fill the holes, an owner would need; time, skills, resin, sandpaper, gelcoat, and more time. For those of you with desert tan gelcoat interior, good skills and time, maybe the cost isn't too high. Maybe you already had the $100+ a pint gelcoat, etc. and you tinted it just right the first try, filled horizontal holes without making a mess, then filled the horizontal pockets with gelcoat paste without low spots and pits (both sides) sanded it over several hours through multiple grades of paper and got perfection the first time. Of course if your boat is blue and white like mine, you need two colors and good luck getting the blue as you have to buy it by the quart (?) because Spectrum no longer sells it in patch kits. For me, if every chance for error was instead perfection, several days and $400+ dollars later, I'd be back to a blank splashwell below the upper holes and ready to drill. And if I get the drill angled or something goes wrong, I can start the whole thing over again with more repairs, and what did I get for my investment in time and dollars? An engine bolted to the transom as it was half a century ago. That transom, with the delta in flexibility between a resin filled hole and plywood, may be more suseptable to cosmetic cracks at that point. Is it weakened to the point where it matters? Of course not, but it's a move in the wrong direction on a decades old transom. Let's face it, if punching holes in the transom and filling them made it stronger, Metan would be turning these old transoms into swiss cheese and filling instead of replacing the plywood.
A bracket can be had in any setback, gives unlimited adjustability, increases every aspect of performance, costs less than $200 and is mounted in 3 minutes in the existing holes. For all this, the value of my boat increased by the cost of the bracket. Did filling the holes at a cost of twice that amount and days of labor, increase the value of your boat? Not one nickel.
So if you want to spend at least twice as much money, time, agravation, and risk a poor job, so that you can fill two holes and punch two more, go slower, burn more fuel, and have no increase in value to show for it, be my guest.
My input on this is, like mine, some boats may not perform mounted all the way up because of hull imperfections or variations in rigging. But my new/ used 1999 70 hp Yamaha did not come with blind holes so i had to patch and fill them. Marine-tex can be tinted to match. I had a lot of work around my transom this past winter and to tell you the truth, before and especially after the motor was installed, I couldn't tell the difference between it and gelcoat. I have gotten a lot of excellent advice from Tom, but unfortunately my hull for whatever reason can't take an aggressive prop. But no harm no foul, I had fun testing it.
Overall your logic expresses a discomfort with gelcoat work. That is fine. However, if you are comfortable with gelcoat, that repair is no big deal at all. And I believe your time and cost figures are overestimates.
Crbenny is right on the cost of gelcoat. My color is custom and costs $280 a gallon minimum which is what he says the blue is now, custom, plus, if he bought a quart of desart tan at $95 plus tax.
While it does take some skill, it can be done with a plug cutter, a bit of resin and some marine tex. It does not have to match exactly unless you are doing a perfect reproduction.
You don't need to buy a gallon of gelcoat. It comes in quarts.
A bracket adds extra weight just to hide holes? That is an expensive cover. In many cases a bracket will create more problems than solve.
If filling the holes is that disconcerting, leave the engine mounted all the way down or mount the new engine in the existing holes. I find this better than a bracket.
We are talking about filling 2 holes here.
These 2 holes may never be visible as they most likely will be hidden beneath the motor bracket depending on how high you raise the motor.
You can purchase Spectrum gelcoat patch paste which is very inexpensive.
We are not doing the whole boat or the entire transom here, just covering the top of two 1/2 inch holes.
A bracket is much more expensive then a small amount of Spectrum patch paste.
Many people don't want a bracket and therefore the price of the boat doesn't increase, it decreases the value for some, just like bottom paint might depending on the buyer.
A bracket with a setback, may change the handling characteristics of some hulls, Center of Gravity etc., making it completely worthless depending on the model.
So, be careful on what models anyone is intending to but a setback bracket on.
crbenny wrote:
For me, if every chance for error was instead perfection, several days and $400+ dollars later, I'd be back to a blank splashwell below the upper holes and ready to drill.
Chris
I spent less than $400 to gelcoat the outside of my 13, that included buying spray guns and a compressor and 2 gallons of gelcoat.
Spectrum sells blue patch kits for $26.67 which will re-gelcoat the two holes your talking about filling. I would get a west systems patch kit, $13.95 and a take my drill and a scrap 2/4 and cut a plug. Use the west system kit and epoxy the core to fill up the hole, make sure it sits well below the level of the current gelcoat. once the resin cures, take your west system kit back out and mix another package of resin and hardner and add filler, so you can fill the hole, once cured break out your sand paper, and sand it below the level of the original gelcoat. no special sandpaper here, just use 80 grit or whatever is handy around the house. Now with that done, you can break out the gelcoat patch kits and patch. At this point, you might want a couple sheets of wet/dry sand paper to buff and sand the gelcoat, now the boat is all patched up and ready for new holes.
Chris has introduced a rather hysterical idea: It takes hundreds of dollar and several days labor to fill two holes in your transom. I am unclear where this hysteria is coming from, but let's examine what he has written.
"In order to fill the holes, an owner would need; time, skills, resin, sandpaper, gelcoat, and more time."
Well, yes and no. You do need a little of each, but not much.
"Maybe you already had the $100+ a pint gelcoat, etc. and you tinted it just right the first try, filled horizontal holes without making a mess, then filled the horizontal pockets with gelcoat paste without low spots and pits (both sides) sanded it over several hours through multiple grades of paper and got perfection the first time."
This is utter nonsense. You do not need a pint of gel coat, in fact, you do not even need gel coat at all unless you are trying for a perfect match.
"Of course if your boat is blue and white like mine, you need two colors and good luck getting the blue as you have to buy it by the quart (?) because Spectrum no longer sells it in patch kits."
Again, mostly nonsense. Spectrum offers Whaler White, but the blue is no longer available in the patch paste kits. So use white on those inside and have two little white dots that match the gel coat of the Stenciled number there too. Again, you will have spent only $28.47
"For me, if every chance for error was instead perfection, several days and $400+ dollars later, I'd be back to a blank splashwell below the upper holes and ready to drill."
Several days?! $400?! Chris -- Are you smoking crack or what?
"And if I get the drill angled or something goes wrong, I can start the whole thing over again with more repairs..."
If one cannot drill a hole, one should not undertake a project like this.
"...and what did I get for my investment in time and dollars? An engine bolted to the transom as it was half a century ago."
No, the goal is NOT to have the engine bolted on as it was a half century ago, but rather to have the ability to bolt it onto the transom much higher than that. This is the whole point of the exercise.
"That transom, with the delta in flexibility between a resin filled hole and plywood, may be more suseptable to cosmetic cracks at that point. Is it weakened to the point where it matters? Of course not, but it's a move in the wrong direction on a decades old transom."
Utter hogwash. If you glue some wood plugs into the transom core, you have a wood-to-wood joint covered with fiberglass, exactly as the original transom was created with exactly the same flexibility. There is absolutely ZERO loss of strength doing this.
"A bracket can be had in any setback, gives unlimited adjustability, increases every aspect of performance, costs less than $200 and is mounted in 3 minutes in the existing holes."
Baloney. For starters, set-back brackets or jack plates do not have the auxiliary (blind) holes drilled in them so you cannot simply bolt them onto the transom that has the auxiliary holes in them, you need to find modify the bracket you have spent a bunch of money on by drilling these holes and if you cannot drill a hole straight (see above) you can throw the bracket away and go buy another one and try again. And I can guarantee you this will take more than 3 minutes and cost more than $200.
Brackets can improve many aspect of a boats performance but they do not necessarily improve every aspect. Use os a bracket moves the center of gravity back and can aggravate boats that tend to porpoise. They also look rather awkward, especially on older classic boats. I would not assume a bracket increases a boats value in and of itself; some will be put off by their appearance. If improved performance make a boat worth more, then simply moving the motor up on the transom may offer the exact same benefit and increase in value but be more aesthetically pleasing.
Hundreds of dollars and days. Absolutely. I can't gas my truck, drive to Home Depot and purchase; 3 grades of sandpaper starting with 1500, acetone, masking tape, wood dowl, sheet plastic and rags. Then drive to West Marine for resin, catalyst, gel paste, cups and stirring sticks, rubbing compound, finesse it, wax, wool and foam pads, etc. and home for free. Everytime any of us take on the simplest job it costs $100s in preparation for supplies we either needed or were low on. Then there's job specific tools, gelcoat and catalyst, plus white for tinting, and shipping and handling. The day you start will run several hours in prep; sanding, taping, cutting the dowl, color matching and catalyst, application. Then curing time, remember? The next day; sanding, compounding, buffing, waxing. Unless you have a low spot in which case day one is a do over.
Little white circles in the splashwell? After an engine has been bolted back there for decades with 1"+ diameter washers, there's a concave area 2" x 2" and it needs to be prepped and repaired properly.. at least on my boat. Besides, we are comparing apples with apples here guys. If you want to compare, you better be shooting for "No Imperfections" in the splashwell which is exactly what you'll have if you skip this expense and 2 days of BS, chuck a drill bit into your cordless and bang 2 holes in your aluminum jackplate and bolt it on with the existing holes.
The argument that jack plates don't always perform very well on some hulls; Almost without exception, everyone is happy with the added performance of their jackplate. If you're sceptical, get one with minimal setback like 2" or 3". Height adjustments are easy and you're not plugging holes so you can punch 2 more holes an inch away.
Notice that I didn't call anyone hysterical or suggest that they were on drugs during my remarks. Tom, you are forever threatened by another point of view which is all I offer, then you resort to personal attacks and you look petty and small. Try and enjoy a civil exchange with the adults.
For everyone that reads this thread later, you can purchase color matched gelcoat for $25 per quart, plus shipping for blue tones. Spectrum is not the only source for gelcoat so I suggest you look around. Once i am ready for gelcoat on my 13, I will polish up and cut out a 2 x 2 section for color matching by express composits. http://www.expresscomposites.com/gelc...lcoat.html
As for a bracket, i would never suggest one just to eliminate filling two holes. A bracket changes the handling of the boat sometimes for the worse, changes how it rides and it's attitude at rest. It will most likely push the drains under water which makes some folks nervous. If you have specific reasons for adding a bracket, and you understand the limitation and possible issues, then it can be a great addition, if your doing it to avoid filling two holes, there are other options.
Chris -- I am not the one who appears threatened. I will say that my crack about the crack was just a wise-crack. I do not literally think you are smoking crack. I apologize if you think I was literally suggesting you are smoking crack. Let me return now to my usual blunt and literal style.
If somebody says something ridiculous, expect it to be ridiculed. Here at Whaler Central, we try to encourage one another using our collective experience to solve problems and advise one another. Encouragement is more useful than discouragement. The notion that filling two little holes will cost hundreds of dollars and takes days is ridiculous, but by trying to make that claim, it seems you are trying to instill fear, uncertainty and doubt in the minds of those who may be contemplating this modification.
If you want to install a bracket on your boat, that is fine, I do not mean to discourage you from doing something you want to do. But I write this for everybody else reading this now, or in the future, while researching this subject. A bracket, as wonderful as it may be for some things, is a very poor adaptor plate for somebody who is simply afraid of filling two little bolt holes in the transom of their boat.
For those other people, let me offer these alternative techniques for filling two little 1/2" bolts holes.
- By far the easiest way to fill two old "blind" holes in the transom is to fill them with polyurethane caulk. I've seen it done many times and it keeps the water out, the only true requirement of this repair. Polyurethane caulk cures by moisture so if the core of your transom has moisture in it, the caulk will still cure and adhere forever. Cost? As little as $10 for a small tube.
- If you are filling the "blind" holes and then drilling new holes very near them, as you would if you drill the new holes 6-1/2" below the upper holes, I would encourage you to actually glue in plugs (NOT dowel) of wood into the holes to make the area solid. If you do not own a 1/2" plug cutter, walk to the neighborhood hardware store and buy one for $10 http://www.acehardware.com/product/in...Id=1291676
Glue a series of plugs into the holes with 5 Minute epoxy or a polyurethane glue (Gorilla is one brand). The 5 Minute epoxy is fast. The polyurethane glue works in damp wood (see above). Both are stronger than the wood itself.
You can top off these holes with Spectrum Gel Coat Patch Paste (> $30, see above) which includes the catalyst. For an even more thorough job, you can also use an intermediate filler like Evercoat's Formula 27 (as little as $10 at the local hardware store or elsewhere: http://www.boatersland.com/fib100572....00572.html
- Another technique is to use epoxy paste to fill or top-off the holes. MarineTex is one good product. Cost? Maybe $12 [ http://www.jmsonline.net/marine-tex-2...rm305k.htm ] Again, this product includes the catalyst.
Any of these techniques will leave you with white dots, which may be fine or not, depending on if your hull is white or not or if you even care. Obviously if you buy color matched gel coat, that problem is solved too.
What if you do not want to see any white dots in your splashwell? Well, as Joe suggested much earlier, hardware may cover most, or all, of it. You can use a backing plate like this that will cover it: http://www.wholesalemarine.com/p/T-H-...Plate.html Cost? $22
But what about all that curing time mentioned earlier? Well 5 minute epoxy takes 5-20 minutes, though you can buy just about any cure time that fits your needs. Spectrum Gel Coat Patch Paste takes 20 minutes to an hour depending on the temperature. MarineTex Epoxy takes 24 hours. A polyurethane caulk like 3M 5200 FC takes 24-48 hours, though once it is skimmed over completely, you can splash your boat because it likes moisture. Polyurethane glue, like Gorilla Glue, takes up to 24 hours. Given that all these products cure by themselves without you standing there, it seems silly to me to suggest that this will require several days of your labor to accomplish.
For those who are extremely concerned about cost, here is another Transom Support Plate (backing plate) for the lower bolts that is even less expensive, $16
Joe,
I actually haven't drilled the lower holes yet but I'm green hole all the way. Currently I'm 2 holes up on top and still it would appear that the lower holes will be roughly 0.5" lower than the blind holes if I drill them in the bottom position (top of the engine bracket slot) for the bottom fasteners. I'd like to be in the same lateral plane as the blind holes and I think that if I drill slightly up, I'll achieve that. I'll post more pics as I go.
I have the bracket and considered it but reconsidered for the following reasons;
1) A bracket didn't work with the 'restomod' theme I was after.
2) Spectrum is selling interior blue patch kits again.
3) My blue interior is stress crack free and I don't want undo stress on a 45 year old transom
4) I wasn't going to go with hydraulic steering and I felt the teleflex cable would make too dramatic a bend forward in order to avoid constant contact with the transom notch.
The console will appear exactly as it did in 1968 with red Ritchie compass, Morse controls, TaylorMade spotlight, and I've used the original Evinrude ignition panel for the remote key switch and a 3 position momentary toggle for PT&T where the choke toggle was.
The 2 piece rubrail with white insert is posing the same old issue with the bowlight as the bolt holes won't align. I'm considering all options on this including filling in the holes and redrilling.
Thanks for your comments on my cowl modification. It wasn't expensive or difficult and now Janis has the decal templates ready to go should others want to do the same.
I am going to have to add my 2 cents to this thread because recently , about 2 months ago I restored the floor, built my own center console and installed all new rigging. Of course, to install the new teleflex NFB SAFE-T-11 cable and helm, which is awesome by the way, I had to remove the motor. I contemplated all of these options to change the height and opted to keep it as it was with the blind holes. I looked at the template on the site and the difference between the blind hole and the next lower hole is 3/4 of an inch. That looks feasible, however my 1999 Yamaha 90 has a difference between the blind hole and next lower hole of 2 inches. I would have to raise the motor way too high. The rest of the work I did had me worn out, so I just rolled with what I had. However, I don't know whether the bottom holes in my transom have been moved. I don't think so though. Or is there something I am missing or don't understand? It is a 1966 hull by the way.
Edited by PaulBW on 08/24/13 - 9:45 AM
1966 custom 16ft with 1999 Yamaha 90HP
