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Drain tube installation questions
Henry	#1  Posted on 06/04/07 - 9:55 AM
Member Posts: 62 Comments: 2 Joined: 05/25/07	These questions are based on the article on drain tube installation written mostly by Tom W. Clark. The drain tube in the splashwell of my 17' Montauk has a hairline crack running around the circumference of the tube and, after reading the article, I am thinking of rising to the challenge of replacing it myself. However I am a bit intimidated by the project. Thinking about doing it I have come up with several questions as follows: 1. What is the best way to remove the old drain tube? 2. Using the air hammer method is getting too complicated (modifying the flare part of the tool, obtaining an air hammer and modifying the chisel from the air hammer, etc. ) for me but can the flare tool pictured in the article get just as good results? also it seems that the air hammer method will not work for the splash well drain tubes because the tube will not go into the drain tube hole from the inside (not enough clearance space) and for the same reason you can't use the air hammer from the inside. So it seems that one is limited to using the flare tool for these drain tubes. Do you see it that way? 3. Will the tubes with one end already flared commonly sold at marine supply stores work well if the other end is annealed as explained in the article? It seems that if you use a tube without one end flared and you use the flare tool, the tube may slide one way or the other in the drain tube hole and you may end up with uneven flares. Is this possible? If you have one end already flared this problem won't happen. Right? 4. What type of o-rings are used? Are they special marine grade o-rings? What diameter size of o-ring in relation to the diameter size of the tube should be used. The same diameter or a little smaller so it fits tightly around the tube? (Someone said not to bother with the o-ring and just use 5200 but I want to do it the way described in the article but without the air hammer). Luckily the main drain tube (the one from bilge/cable tunnel area to the bottom of the transom) on my Montauk seeks to be okay but replacement of that tube would seem to be very complicated. First it is very long and curved. Theoretically speaking, how would that tube be replaced? I know I have asked a lot of questions but I would appreciate hearing responses from Tom W. Clark to these questions. Thanks.
Joe Kriz	#2  Posted on 06/04/07 - 10:24 AM
Site Owner Personal Page Personal Album Photo Albums Project Albums Posts: 11447 Comments: 452 Joined: 03/18/05	Henry, Wow..... You don't leave any room here for other people to try and help you besides Tom W Clark. By asking only for his help, everyone else here, including myself, would be reluctant to even try and help answer your question. By waiting for only Tom W Clark's opinion, you might have to wait a long time as he might miss this question as it goes downs the list. Are you sure you only want his opinion or would you like other peoples opinion too? Please let us know as there are many other people that have replaced drain tubes. Good Luck....
jaemrich	#3  Posted on 06/04/07 - 12:07 PM
Member Personal Page Posts: 61 Comments: 1 Joined: 04/02/07	Sue at Twin Cities can hook you up with tubes and o-rings and the flaring tool. I do not know if the bilge tube is actually curved. I just had mine replaced and it was not curved. i would install it from the inside and flare the outside. good luck.
kamie	#4  Posted on 06/04/07 - 1:30 PM
Member Personal Page Project Albums Posts: 2975 Comments: 3 Joined: 11/04/05	While you are waiting for Tom to jump in an assist, I will try to answer some of your questions. 1. use a hammer and a screw driver, flat head prefered. Tap around the tube until it colapses in on itself and then use the screw driver to push the whole mess thru and out or in the boat depending on which side is easier to work from. I personally prefer to be outside the boat, as kneeling in cramped corners even on the 18 and swinging a hammer doesn't work real well for me. 2. I got fine results with the flare tool. It does take practice so remember that by this point, Tom has done 10's if not 100's of drain tubes, while perfecting his craft. 3. The tubes with one end flared will work, but they are expensive and I prefer to have plenty of practice tubing. You should always flare one end prior to installing it and attempting to flare the second end. the preflared tubes save you this step on the first tube you install. If you can get two tubes depending on length, you will have to create the flare in the second tube. 4. No special O rings. I would have to look up the sizes. What size are you drain tubes, 1 inch or 1 1/4 inches? I would replace all the tubes while your replacing. If one's bad they are all bad or about to be so. The long one gets replaced just like the others, nothing special. The flaring tools are the same ones used by Whaler to install the tubes in the first place. You just need to replace the bolt with a threaded rod between the two flaring ends. I don't believe the angle if any should pose a huge issue, it's really not curved. You can of course discount my opinion and wait for Tom. He has done many more drain tubes than I have as I only have the single 18 and I haven't started a side company to do it cross country yet. Good Luck.
Henry	#5  Posted on 06/04/07 - 3:15 PM
Member Posts: 62 Comments: 2 Joined: 05/25/07	Joe Kriz and others: No I am not only seeking Tom W. Clark's opinion. Thanks for your replies. Of course, I would appreciate any feedback from any one else who has knowledge about drain tube repair and who would also be willing to take their time to respond. I sincerely apologize if it appears that I was only asking for Mr. Clark's opinion. My questions are based on his posts or article in this forum where he discusses his air hammer technique for drain tube installation. Before I started this thread the information in that article was all I knew about drain tube repair. Again I would appreciate any information from anyone who would be kind enough to reply. Thanks.
Joe Kriz	#6  Posted on 06/04/07 - 3:34 PM
Site Owner Personal Page Personal Album Photo Albums Project Albums Posts: 11447 Comments: 452 Joined: 03/18/05	Thanks for the clarification Henry... Yes, it is much better to start with one flared end on the tube. You can buy them that way or you can flare the one end yourself which isn't easy by hand. I used Tom's method to flare the first end with the rivet gun method... The rivet gun worked great for me for making the first flare on the end of the tube. After that, I could not get the rivet gun method to work for me on the second flare once the tube was in the boat. So, I used just the hand flaring tool once the tube was in the boat. I followed the instructions in the article up until I used the hand flaring tool. It was very easy to use the hand flaring tool for all of the tubes including the ones that had the angle on the outside of the hull. I flared the tube until the tube touched one side of the hull then I used a small ballpein hammer to finish off the flare to match the outside angle of the hull. It really was a lot easier than I thought doing it this way. I replaced all 5 of the tubes in my prior Outrage 22' Cuddy and they came out better than factory... Really.... I used the O-Rings and 4200 just like the article. The O-Ring and the 4200 expand and contract with the temperature as does the brass slightly. You do not want the brass lip to be up solid against the hull, that's why the O-Ring is there. The lip almost comes completely around the O-Ring but not quite... I would start with the short, (basically straight at both ends), drain tubes out the transom as they are the easiest to practice on. You can still use the ballpein hammer to give them the final finish and to get some practice before going to the outside of the hull with the angle(s).... Main thing..... Anneal the ends of the tubes about the last 1/2 inch so they don't split when flaring the ends.... Get them red hot with a torch and then quench in water.... I didn't split any tubes at all.... Good Luck and let us know how you do....
arthureld	#7  Posted on 06/04/07 - 5:34 PM
Member Personal Page Posts: 735 Comments: 7 Joined: 02/15/07	I love this place. Here's the Drain tube install article I found with a search of articles for "drain tube" This looks like a job I can tackle on my Outrage.
DelawareDan	#8  Posted on 06/06/07 - 4:50 AM
Member Personal Page Posts: 328 Comments: 2 Joined: 05/24/07	I love this place too! On my project, I was alarmed to find that the main drain tube through the transom was completely missing. I could feel the foam through the holes. I was too much of a novice to realize that this also originally had a brass drain tube, so I made up my own permanent solution. I drilled from both ends with a 2 1/2" hole saw, and epoxied in first a 1 1/2" PVC pipe, using WS epoxy, thickened with colloidal silica. I cut it about 1/4" short to allow for the next step. I then glued a 1" PVC pipe inside the other one, being careful to get the angle right on the inside, and let the outside of the pipe run long, to be cut off flush with the transom later. The first pipe being a little short on each end allows for the epoxy to bond the inner pipe directly to the boat. My drainwell was too far gone to ever be original again, and I'm not recommending this to anyone unless theirs is in the same shape. I glassed cloth to the drainwell walls, extending the cloth into the tunnel, after burnishing the aluminum tube with a brass cup brush on a drill. I'm pleased with the result for my situation. The brass tube for the bow locker on my boat is OK, but the transom upper drain tube was cut off flush with the transom on the outside. I was planning on reinstalling it with 5200 after painting, but now I'm considering buying the tool and replacing both tubes. Is the tool expensive? Alternatively, iif there is a member in the upper Chesapeake area who already has one, let me know, if you'd like to loan out the tool.
arthureld	#9  Posted on 06/06/07 - 5:03 AM
Member Personal Page Posts: 735 Comments: 7 Joined: 02/15/07	I checked all mine before I bought the boat and they seem to be ok. But, I decided to replace them all anyway just for peace of mind. The boat has been out of the water for a long time except for my sea trial. I will get them all out to see if any water comes out. If water does come out, I'll drill some holes where I expect water. Then I'll patch it up, install the new drain tubes, and paint the bottom.
Tom W Clark	#10  Posted on 06/06/07 - 5:53 AM
Member Personal Page Posts: 4280 Comments: 7 Joined: 09/30/05	Henry, I use the technique that Kamie describes to remove the old drain tubes. Just whack the lip in, collapse the tube and drive it out. Be careful not to gouge your gel coat when whacking it. The manual flaring (or flanging) tool will work just fine if the drain tube is perpendicular to the surface of the hull. The reason I developed the power flaring tool is for the numerous instances where the tubes meet the surface of the hull at an angle. The manual tool has no allowance for any out-of-square variance. However, as Joe has pointed out, you can finish the flare with a hammer or other tool. I have flared brass drain tubes with nothing but hammers. It takes time and great care, but it can be done. The splashwell drain tubes can easily be done with the air hammer but because these are among the few drain tubes in a Whaler hull that are typically short and square to the hull, there is no reason not to use the manual tool. Th manual tool cannot easily create the initial flare form your brass tubing. The air hammer can because you just hold the tubing in one hand and the air hammer in the other. It is NOT difficult to obtain an air hammer for this task. Just go to the Home Depot and buy one for $20. You do need an air compressor though. The dies form the manual tool do not need to be modified at all if you are making square flares. It s only when making angles flares that the dies has to be ground down a bit. Annealing is the key to getting nice flared ends on the brass tubing. Do not skip this step. If one brass drain tube on a Whale hull is bad or is going bad, The rest cannot be far behind. REPLACE THEM ALL while you are set up to do it. The O-rings used by Whaler were neoprene. I choose to use EPDM O-rings for no great reason other than maybe a slight increase in durability. I order the O-rings from McMaster-Carr (www.mcmaster.com). Always use sealant in addition to the O-ring. Yes, it is messy but it is cheap insurance. I use 3M 5200 polyurethane caulk, white. Black is fine too but be warned: Because it is the same color as the the O-rings, it is VERY difficult to see if you have more caulk to clean up or if you do not have enough. Use the white. I speak from personal experience here ;-) Edited by Tom W Clark on 06/06/07 - 5:57 AM
motherway1	#11  Posted on 06/06/07 - 8:35 AM
Member Posts: 11 Comments: 0 Joined: 05/17/07	Wondering what operational issues suggest tubes need replacement. Asked a question on the site earlier noting poor drainage from the well in front of my console on an outrage 20. It was suggested to to inspect tube for cracks/bulges. Have not had a chance to do that yet but am wondering if poor drainage is a common symptom.
arthureld	#12  Posted on 06/06/07 - 9:36 AM
Member Personal Page Posts: 735 Comments: 7 Joined: 02/15/07	Does anyone know what size the drain tubes are on a 1984 Outrage 20? Or does it use both sizes?
Joe Kriz	#13  Posted on 06/06/07 - 9:44 AM
Site Owner Personal Page Personal Album Photo Albums Project Albums Posts: 11447 Comments: 452 Joined: 03/18/05	Roger, Most Classic Outrages have 1 1/4" out the back of the transom and 1" out the bottom of the lockers thru the hull.
arthureld	#14  Posted on 06/06/07 - 9:47 AM
Member Personal Page Posts: 735 Comments: 7 Joined: 02/15/07	Thanks Joe, I'll order both tools then.
Derwd24	#15  Posted on 06/20/07 - 8:26 PM
Member Posts: 1607 Comments: 9 Joined: 05/09/07	I checked mine today (all 8! '83 Outrage 22) and they appeared to be all 1" tubes Joe, even the rear. I used a 1" drain plug and fit it into all the tubes, but to my dismay the rear tube under the engine was missing, though the plug was tight in there too (There's a piece on the outside of the transom covering the rear tube completely, maybe a little scupper, that I don't know is original, but it hid the missing tube well) Am I off on the size of the rear tube? Measured them all for length and it looks like I need at least 44" of tube, and that's barring any mistakes. I'll go with the 72" length.... Thanks.
Tom W Clark	#16  Posted on 06/20/07 - 8:49 PM
Member Personal Page Posts: 4280 Comments: 7 Joined: 09/30/05	Derwd24, Order two 36" lengths. The shipping will be MUCH cheaper. The 1983 Outrage 22 was unique in that it had an odd splashwell that extend to the very keel. The drain tube for the splashwell used a self-bailer type drain using a ball and plastic shroud. It was designed to drain the splashwell when the boat was on plane then remain watertight until water slopped over the transom. The reality is those scuppers will leak.
Derwd24	#17  Posted on 06/20/07 - 8:58 PM
Member Posts: 1607 Comments: 9 Joined: 05/09/07	Thanks for the reply Tom. Am I correct in assuming that the assembly you describe is all contained in that scupper housing and the tube is missing in that rear section, or is it a specially designed passage? I think that rear transom drain length is about 4-5" long but the tube from the rear locker into the splash well measures about 13" long, I was surprised at that one. I will get two of the 3' as you suggest, along with the 5200 and EDPM O rings. I'm looking forward to making the air hammer tool, though the thought of using just the ballpeen like they used to do is appealing...
Tom W Clark	#18  Posted on 06/20/07 - 9:14 PM
Member Personal Page Posts: 4280 Comments: 7 Joined: 09/30/05	The drain tube behind the self-bailer is the same as all the other drain tubes. Start by replacing it and then see if you can find a replacement ball check valve scupper. I believe they are still available.
Derwd24	#19  Posted on 06/20/07 - 9:28 PM
Member Posts: 1607 Comments: 9 Joined: 05/09/07	Thanks Tom, appreciate the prompt replies. One last question before I order. I'd read here somewhere that the older Outrages like mine use the 1-1/4" tube for that rear drain, and the 1" everywhere else. Mine seems like it's all 1", but with that rear tube missing, it's hard to tell. Do you have any take on the rear drain size?