Before Posting, Please Read Our Posting Guidelines Below.
1. Use the full 4 digit year for everything you are asking your question about. Example: 1962, 1988, 2000, 2011 2. Include the correct name of your Whaler model. Example: Montauk 17, Montauk 170, Outrage 26, Outrage 260 3. Include the length when necessary. Example: 16, 17, 18, 20, 22 4. Do not post your email address anywhere on this site as it is already in your user profile.
I'm considering a double bilge pump system; the secondary pump smaller than the primary.
The larger primary in the rear sump, Rule 20F (800gph)or 20A (1000 gph)
and a smaller stern removeable secondary for a 10 gal bait tank.
If ever needed, the second smaller [360 or 500gph] could be set in boat as back up.
Regarding the primary, is this considered over-sized for a 1987 Custom 17?
20F v. 20A: Min. 8.5 g/minute v. 10 g/minute on 3' head @ 12volts, Max 10.25 v. 12 g/minute @ 13.6 volts.].
Doesn't seem over-sized to me if stern takes a 10 gallon wave splash while backing down to haul in a fish or a MOB.
I think it's way overkil for the following reasons, if you are referring to the 17 foot hull in your personal page. If you put that hull in the water without the plug you'll get a couple of inches if water in the stern and that's all. if you put in the plug and fill the hull with water it won't sink and water will begin to flow out of the motor well area. If you then pull the plug the hull will empty to the afore mentioned couple of inches. Most people who keep their boats in the water either leave out the plug or put it in and have a small 500 GPH automatic pump. A big disadvantage of a bigger pump in the well is the difficulty of putting in or removing the plug.
I winter in Ft. Myers and summer in St. Joseph, Michigan. It’s now about 12 years since I’ve joined this group. I gave my 1972 whaler to my daughter and sold the 17’. Bought an O’Day 28 sailboat and sailed on Lake Michigan. Yesterday I bought a 2005 130 Sport.
Having motored in serious SCA conditions in a 17' boat, I have learned a few things.
There are bilge pumps and dewatering pumps. A bilge clears a few gallons and residual spray. For the deluge from a rouge wave or nasty wake wave or emergency backing into breaking 3', a bilge pump will NEVER cut it.
Having stuffed the bow and backed into breaking waves too many times, I would do the "gun it" method followed by self dewatering when conditions allowed. I became skilled at maneuvering the boat with 4 inches of water sloshing around.
I used a cut down 5 gallon bucket (~ 3 gallons) for dewatering.
The normal 'un-plugged' deck doesn't bother me, if the motor is operational the self bail is great. If docked, I have all day to bail cup by cup if necessary.
Alternately, when the motor goes down, the 800gph can still empty it in under 1 minute and I'll have all hands ready for more urgent tasks, if necessary.
Never had a problem pulling or setting my drain plug b/c of a bilge pump; just lift pump out and lay on deck.
The secondary bait pump is just a backup, if ever needed.
I installed 3 sump pumps on my 1979 22' Revenge. I have an additional "wash down" pump that doubles as a bilge pump. The end of the intake hose is mobile. My boat has the low cut self bailing transom and I frequently took on water. My fish locker was a magnet for filling up and that was one of the uses for the wash down pump.
I have since installed a drain tube that takes the water from the fish locker to the splash well. One pump (750 gph) is located in the splash well. I went with the 750 gph because when shopping it was the largest that had the 3/4 discharge hose (I believe have I seen larger ones since). Another is in my rigging tunnel (750gph). The rigging tunnel is the overflow drain for my below deck fuel tank chamber and, like the fish locker, was a magnet for water. I wanted to keep this area as dry as possible to prevent water from entering the tank chamber. The third pump (1100 gph) is in the cuddy cabin in a small sump area on the lowest part of the floor. That same area has a drain tube that discharges the rain water from the cabin when on the trailer. I have it there for rain water when in the water. Both the cuddy cabin pump and the rigging chamber pump share a 1 1/4" discharge hose. All the pumps have backflow check valves and auto on/off with manual over ride.
I do not see anything wrong with a couple of bilge pumps. They would work fine when you take in enough water to be a nuisance but not enough to power up to bail. You take on a large wave and you have a starting point removing the water. I still carry bailing buckets and went to great lengths to keep the self bailing feature intact. I would recommend the largest pump that has the 3/4" discharge hose. The 1 1/4" discharge hose is difficult to layout and the fittings/adapters are custom made. Make sure you have check valves, especially if you have the auto feature. Water left in the discharge tube flows back to the bilge without the check valve. The pump will keep recycling and drain the battery or burn up the motor. All my pumps are Johnson with the "Mickey Mouse" ears. I use them because the pump is easy to replace without removing the body of the pump. I am going to test the 750 gph pump in the splash well to see if there are problems with the 3/4" discharge hose. If no problems I may swap it out with the 1100 gph pump because all the Johnson pumps are interchangeable with the same casing.
Honda makes an engine driven pump you could mount in place of the cooler in front of the console. It has a capacity of 22,980 gallons per hour.
I winter in Ft. Myers and summer in St. Joseph, Michigan. It’s now about 12 years since I’ve joined this group. I gave my 1972 whaler to my daughter and sold the 17’. Bought an O’Day 28 sailboat and sailed on Lake Michigan. Yesterday I bought a 2005 130 Sport.
I use, and recommend, a Yamaha powered stainless steel pump with a minimum capacity of 30,000 gph in ANY Whaler wing. I mean, let's face it, when you buy a Whaler, you just know it's just a matter of time before it tries to sink on you. I figure the stainless steel with the glass liner in the Yamaha pump models will resist any dangerous or corrosive chemicals that formulate with the water when it comes into contact with all my poorly cured, and rapidly dissolving, fiberglass resins also. I just can't bear the thought of the ship going down while I am deathly ill from chemical exposure.
I would also recommend adding an air intake snorkel, on both the outboards and the gas engine pump, as I have done, in order to keep all the engines running as long as possible while my Whaler is sinking. This way, I can keep the vessel moving forward into the sea, still trolling, as it goes down. It makes the story you tell to the rescue swimmers a lot better. Oh, and yes, I caught 2 more dolphin on the troll while that last one sank.
The float switch I added to my generator in the current Whaler, (no pun intended), to shut it down when the water level reaches the windings, really brings me peace of mind as well. I certainly recommend this to all.
I added this after I backed down on a Blue a little too fast, and sunk my last Whaler. It was an electrifying experience! Straight to the bottom it went!
But, on the flip side of all that, after I regained consciousness in the water, the fish that floated up around me from my catch that day were all cooked perfectly, and delicious! Made for some real good eating while waiting on the dang Coast Guard to retrieve me!
I almost never found that boat later. If it hadn't been for that pressure resistant, electrically insulated, and water - proof EPIRB I had thru-bolted to the gas powered water pump, I probably would have not been able to pull that one up from the bottom and back to the harbor to collect the insurance money. Hooked the chain right to it. :)
All was certainly NOT lost, however. After the insurance company totaled that one, I sold it out in California, for more than I paid for it new. I hear there is some poor guy trying to restore it now :) I went up to Michigan and got a new one to sink, fairly quickly, with all the proceeds :)
Garris and Phil-
thanks for the thoughts.
Getting 'pooped' while dead in open water is a 'worse case scenario' we all hope to never find ourselves in, but any and all pumps available are welcome.
I've always had a bucket or other manual bailer w/me, but I always like back up, especially on small boats like a Montauk, whether or not you have motor power.
San Diego is usually mild, but it's also open Pacific and 10 miles out can change fast when.
Buckets work, but if you've taken more than one wave in these small boats I'm pretty sure you'd have at least one pump humming along with 'a--holes and elbows' bucket mode.
Not a matter I take lightly.
Last month a seasoned fisherman took on enough water that his 17' foam filled craft [I don't think it was a BW] didn't sink but ended up rolling over and he hung on for a few hours until a commercial sportfisher spotted him and picked him up.
Not saying lack of bilge pumps was cause, but personally, I'll have as much 'back-up pump' as is practical.
I've seen enough instances of going from a minor swamping to knee high in very short term. s--t happens fast. 8 or 10 g/minute PLUS me hurling gallons still beats JUST me hurling gallons.
I liked Silent's story. What was missing was when floating in the water he had peace of mind with EPIRB. Truly a life saving feature for fishing/boating. For those of you unfamiliar, the EPIRB sends out a signal to "all the troops" associated with sea rescue. Priority mission. Gives exact location. Not something you want to activate by mistake. Activates automatically when submerged. His salvaging of the boat was a bonus. Case in point was Hullinthewater's story of the fisherman being saved by the commercial boat.. The story could very well have ended differently and not for the better.
Good for you Silent for having the safety feature on board. I believe there is a fine line for space saving vs. bilges vs. use of boat. Individual choices. For any offshore fishermen the EPIRB is not a short cut I would take.
All comedy aside, I actually do have and use an EPIRB on both my boats. It is very important to register these when you put them on your vessel. The information you provide helps identify you to the search parties involved if the EPIRB is activated. Both of my EPIRB units are category 2 units. This allows you to actually manually activate the radio beacon to the satellite if you have time while ditching, you don't have to wait for the boat to sink and trigger the automatic release/activation system.
The most important Emergency Radio Beacon I use, in my opinion, is the PLB. I keep one of these attached to my lifejacket at all times on the water. Even if you don't own a boat, but you go offshore fishing, you should have one of these. These can be used if the boat your on does not sink, and you just fall off the boat as the boat continues happily on it's course.
I carry mine with me even on other peoples boats fishing, I want the search and rescue to find me, I could give a rats @*& if they find the boat! Did you know that most people that enter the water in emergencies die from exposure, not from drowning? Speed of rescue is extremely important!
Anyone that just happens to be noticed and retrieved after entering the water, or floating around on a capsized hull, before they die, while out on the ocean without a radio beacon locator, is just dang lucky. The ocean is a BIG place. The radio beacon to the satellite makes it a lot smaller for the rescue team.
Even if your swamped in your Whaler, (It really won't sink), with no power and your batteries shorted out to power your radio, the CAT 2 EPIRB, or your PLB, can and will get you back to solid ground.
I know BW made the (IMO false) claim the 17' is/was self bailing but pulling the plug while you-re already swamped seems like a really bad idea and I'd never leave it at the dock with the plug pulled either.
Gravity / pulling the plug - won't drain water nearly as fast as a high power pump, (especially if you're not under power) so that could easily make matters worse.
I have the Rule 750GPH fully automatic pump that fits inside the sump area of my 17' and it works great. If I ever got swamped so bad that wasn't able to do the job I'd first try the "punch it" method but with that much water I doubt I'd have enough power to move water over the transom (I really don't want to test the theory but interested to hear if others have...)
In a real bad swamping situation I think a 5 gallon bucket is probably your best friend followed by a DSC enabled VHF followed by a EPIRB / PLB. In really bad conditions I wear my PLB or keep it in a waterproof safety / ditch bag along with secondary handheld DSC VHF and my cell phone along with other misc. safety gear.
All that said, I don't think a second pump is the answer. Perhaps if you leave it docked and the second pump serves as a backup or for some reason you didn't trust the primary pump. If that was the case then I'd rig one pump to one battery and connect the second pump to the second battery so you're covering your bases for disaster.
I have a 1200 GPH Atwood pump mounted in the sump area and it fits fine with no interference with the plug on my Alert 17, it fits back under the sump cover. I also carry an extra one that I can change out by just unplugging a disabled pump and plugging in my spare pump. This pump clears out a lot of water in no time at all and sure beats the 5 gallon bucket! AL
I know BW made the (IMO false) claim the 17' is/was self bailing but pulling the plug while you-re already swamped seems like a really bad idea and I'd never leave it at the dock with the plug pulled either.
It might "seem" like a bad idea to you, but it's not.
The buoyancy of the Boston Whaler will actually put lift forces against the water level in the swamped boat.
The unplugging of the boat in a swamped or semi-swamped boat of any make, not just BW, while underway, is the best way to remove the swamped water from the boat, as long as the plug hole is in a location where the swamping water access to it, like the low point drain.
There is more than gravity at work here, there is a siphon effect created with that plug hole when the boat is underway with the plug hole below the waterline. This actually pulls water out of the interior faster than gravity alone. Depending on how fast you can go in these conditions, this can create more gph water removal, by far,than your " high power pump".
In all the discussion here, Phil T appears to be the only responder other than myself that has actually ever dealt with this swamping issue. I agree with every word he wrote in that reply, and for me, it ended the relevant discussion.
I do not think anyone here ought to intentionally head out in 3' sea conditions in their 17' BW's. I know for a fact, however, that if you actually get swamped in any boat, no matter the size, you are going to be in a real eye-opener situation about bilge pumps. :)
Bilge pumps are for slow leaking conditions, definitely useless in most swamping situations in a Boston Whaler. The reason Boston Whaler is so popular among us off-shore folks is that the Whaler flotation is designed to keep the engines above water in fully swamped conditions, which will only occur when a wave breaks into the boat, either by backing up or navigation in very rough sea conditions.
I have NO bilge pump at all in my 1986 outrage 18. I feel perfectly safe with this. I have 3 bilge pumps in my 1989 Whaler 27FCWD, and I keep an eye on the run indicator lights to alert me if a hose breaks in any of the 3 bilges they pump. I feel perfectly safe with this as well. It depends on the boat, but 1 bilge pump is certainly all that could be considered useful, in any way, on a single bilge boat design. Carry a spare if your so-inclined, but 1 pump per bilge is all you need.
Learn how to safely dewater your boat in a swamped state without a pump. You fully swamp that 17', you are going to notice a LOT of stuff suddenly inoperable, and quite probably that will include your 12v electric battery powered bilge pump.
I guarantee you that a bilge pump is not going to save your life. That PLB or EPIRB, combined with an auto-inflating life jacket, could actually do that for you.
Just doing a quick calculation (with a fair bit of hand waving...) I figure that:
"flat" floor area of 17' classic is approximately 5' by 12' (6'2" - (gunwale thickness + curve), 16'7" - (splashwell +bow+locker))
1" of water spread evenly over 60 sqft is 5 cubic feet of water
5 cuft of water is around 37.5 gallons
1" of water would take the 800GPH pump (with head & hose losses) over 4 minutes to clear the deck
For Phil's 4" of water, it would be over 17 minutes to clear it out
That's a long time to wait, especially if your boat is unstable and the same wave action that filled the boat still exists. Seems like draining through the notched transom or using a bucket would be required, though a pump might add a bit of supplement.
I can be prone to errors, so check my math...
Dennis
Edited by DennisVollrath on 10/15/14 - 12:59 PM
1985 Outrage 18 with Suzuki DF140A
Back on bilge pump redundancy, and just trying to get water out of these small boats as fast as is practical, for my purposes:
Mission accomplished.
My citation of the recent boaters' misfortune was intended to illustrate how fast things can go wrong- and to a point of no return, but my main focus is still on what I can do right for myself before things start to go wrong.
In addition to a bucket, I'll rig a double pump.
I've heard and seen a few accounts and demo's of positive flotation hulls, but I'm still focused on the 'before' condition and keeping the hull as high and dry as possible [and not on a trailer]...and upright, even if without motive power.
An inch over a sump full [incidental] of water doesn't bother me, but getting out 30 gallons in a hurry can be paramount to stability. Understood I go boating subject to many certain risks, but I also didn't intend to debate hull flotation and swamped stability in this thread either...
But, now that we're here and based on the evolved responses...these are just my opinions.
EPIRBs should be standard for any offshore activity since they're now relatively inexpensive. I bought my first back in the 80's when they were giant and cost near $2k- glad I've never used it. Had a bigger boat and used to make the crossings to-fr Dana Pt/Catalina, or up and down coast [many Newport to Ensenada races].
Although they signal position via satellite to a USCG the information is relayed to the nearest local CG Sta. where S&R begins deployment. That could take a while.
Anytime I go out in open water, besides a life jacket, I tether a waterproof hand held vhf to lifejacket and mount it at the waist. When fishing, it's not that obtrusive a setup, and I like the redundancy, if the EPIRB doesn't work. Locally, there's almost always someone out soaking a line and you might get helped sooner via vhf16 Mayday.
The recent case of the soul that got picked up by nearby boat is consensus pure luck [Darwinism at work]- I don't believe he EPIRB'd or radio'd a 'Mayday'. Don't know to a certainty, but I think his 'near-miss' problem likely started w/either too much water in boat to maintain upright stability, lack of motive power, or both.
I've tethered to the boat an 'Overboard Bag' with flare gun and small compressed air horn, 2 extra inflatable vests, a compass, etc.. and a Cat II EPIRB.
Recognizing the risks of entering the ocean in a small boat, I've tried to factor and minimize the biggest risks to keep them from becoming failures. I don't think I have it all covered, but then I didn't expect to try in this thread.
There's already been a few threads on Boat and Ocean safety and I wouldn't want to detour others from visiting those; none the less it's still a necessary and informative topic that I'll bow out of for my purposes here.
Thanks everyone.
Silentpardner wrote:
Dennis, you are spot on in your calculations, as always:)
800 GPH divided by 60 minutes equals about 13 gallons per minutes so FWIW we're really talking a little under 3 minutes to clear the water in that scenario.
I'm really surprised you don't have a bilge pump yet seem very safety conscious, why not have one?
Thankfully I've never been in a really dangerous swapping situation but I've had plenty of water on my deck in several situations as I'm sure many of us have, it's part of Whaling...
Whalerbob wrote:
[
800 GPH divided by 60 minutes equals about 13 gallons per minutes so FWIW we're really talking a little under 3 minutes to clear the water in that scenario.
Whalerbob,
The 8.5GPM figure I used is from the O.P.'s first post, which I assume came from the pump's datasheet. 800GPM is the absolute maximum capacity of the pump, and must be derated for adding a hose and having that hose get over the transom. The 8.5GPM may be on the conservative side, but even at 13GPM , clearing 4" of water from the boat would take over 11 minutes.
I have bilge pumps in my boats, but I use them to evacuate washdown and rain water. It's hard to see them being of much use in an imminent swamp or capsize situation.
"flat" floor area of 17' classic is approximately 5' by 12' (6'2" - (gunwale thickness + curve), 16'7" - (splashwell +bow+locker))
1" of water spread evenly over 60 sqft is 5 cubic feet of water
5 cuft of water is around 37.5 gallons
1" of water would take the 800GPH pump (with head & hose losses) over 4 minutes to clear the deck
For Phil's 4" of water, it would be over 17 minutes to clear it out
Read that calculation a bit more carefully, I believe that you are missing the 4" of water multiplied by 37.5 gallons per inch.
Silentpardner wrote:
Dennis, you are spot on in your calculations, as always:)
I am Silentpardner, and I still approve these calculations :)
I'm really surprised you don't have a bilge pump yet seem very safety conscious, why not have one?
Go back to the top and read the original post. You will see we are talking about a 17' Boston Whaler. Remember this size. I own an 18' Boston Whaler that was never equipped with a bilge pump, ostensibly, because Boston Whaler did not think it needed one. The USCG agreed with them apparently. Obviously, I do too.
Why would you carry a bunch of bilge pumps on a boat that could be cut in half with the engines still attached to the transom, and, as long as you are able to control those engines, you could return to shore without a bow on the boat at all?
I have fished for days with absolutely no plugs in my 1986 Outrage 18. Open water access into the boat. I would not have been concerned for my safety if some idiot drilled my deck through to the water with 100 holes while I was napping out there. I might be concerned for his safety, however.
I have a 30 gallon live well on my Outrage 18 with continuous flow of 500 GPH. I had the drain plug one time while I was away from my boat and waiting to go fishing the next morning for almost 12 hours. The well ran over for this entire time into the boat. I had left the sump plug out in case of rain with the boat sitting in the water. When I got to the boat the next morning to go, there was about 1" of water in the back of the boat on the deck, about 4" in front of the deck splashwell towards the transom and over the sump, even though I had pumped over 5000 gallons into that boat overnight. You know what I did?
I shut down the baitwell pump,cleared the bait and debris that had restricted the sump drain, fired that 140 Johnson up, headed to open water, got up on plane, and when the water disappeared from inside the boat, I went back to the dock and got some more bait.
Why do I need a bilge pump in that Outrage 18 again? Why would anyone's safety in boats that can be operated like this depend on bilge pump/s?
I should note that I am assuming that you read in my posts that I do have bilge pumps and use them on my Whaler 27...but of course, it actually has bilges.
I have never seen a classic Boston Whaler less than 18' long that had a bilge that could ever need pumping. Every one of them, including my own model, has a drain sump, or just a hole out the transom or deck.
Whalerbob wrote:
[
800 GPH divided by 60 minutes equals about 13 gallons per minutes so FWIW we're really talking a little under 3 minutes to clear the water in that scenario.
Whalerbob,
The 8.5GPM figure I used is from the O.P.'s first post, which I assume came from the pump's datasheet. 800GPM is the absolute maximum capacity of the pump, and must be derated for adding a hose and having that hose get over the transom. The 8.5GPM may be on the conservative side, but even at 13GPM , clearing 4" of water from the boat would take over 11 minutes.
I have bilge pumps in my boats, but I use them to evacuate washdown and rain water. It's hard to see them being of much use in an imminent swamp or capsize situation.
Dennis
Dennis, got it thanks, that explains the 25% delta and you're probably right about it not really delivering 800 GPH in a real world application but that seems like false advertising to me.
And SP, I'm not looking for a beef and if you feel comfortable running your boat without a bilge pump that's up to you and good luck with it. I swamped my 13 once and didn't have a pump or a bucket so I took the engine cover off and bailed with that while the engine dried out.
With 2 people in my 17' and a typical load, I can't pull the plug without taking on an unsafe amount of water and wouldn't want even an inch of water sloshing around on deck under any circumstance. I have been out in some extreme conditions in my 17' taking green water over the front and back but thankfully never took on more water than my pump could handle, but, if so I'd first try to bail and if the engine was running I certainly would pull the plug temporarily if needed.
