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When does a boat become a custom model?
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| Keven |
Posted on 10/04/11 - 8:31 AM
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I am not sure I agree with the methodology here in determining a boats model. I thought we could have a debate and decide when a boat changes models, if ever. Some people here believe that changing the seat on a Montauk, changes that boat from a Montauk to a Custom. I don't agree with that. If I change the seats in a late model Ford Mustang, does it become a Ford Custom? What if I add a poling platform, forward chair and additional rod holders to a Montauk, does it also become a Custom? In my opinion, the boat model and year should stay the same as when originally manufactured, regardless of what owners do to modify them.
1981 15' Custom powered by 2005 Yamaha F60 |
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| CES |
Posted on 10/04/11 - 9:26 AM
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BW uses the same hulls for several different models of Whalers. The 17' Montauk uses the same hull as the Newport, Eastport etc and the only distinction is the different interior layouts. If you were to change out the RPS to pedistal seating in a Montauk, it would essentially change the configuration whereas it's no longer a complete Montauk which makes it a custom.
If you were to strip down an '85 mustang LX and change the distinct items that make it a LX, is it still a LX?? Technically yes however it's been customized so though the badging says LX, it's really not an LX any longer.
Same goes for the various models of BWs.
Edited by CES on 10/04/11 - 9:29 AM
Cliff
1966 13' Sport with a 1993 40hp Yamaha 2 Smoker |
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| Sebastian |
Posted on 10/04/11 - 9:31 AM
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I think for a forum like this, it is important to keep the classics defined as the original model name. It educates owners on how the boat came out of the factory. To some that is important in determining value.
That said, I have a custom that I made to fit my needs.
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| Bake |
Posted on 10/04/11 - 9:52 AM
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I think some people are kind of rigid on this subject due to the fact that so many people use the site for a resource. As new whaler owners look for every ounce of information they can get on their new boats. I do tend to agree that a simple rps to leaning post conversion would not change the Montauk designation in my mind. I will say for the sake of argument that the designation did have more to do with the interior components than the hull, so changing components would in effect change the designation. I have a miss matched 1979 15 footer with a much newer super sport interior, Is it a super sport as they were not made in 1979? I have a low pro conversion that would be considered by some a bastard whaler with all the changes. I am pretty proud of both.
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| moretrench1 |
Posted on 10/04/11 - 10:26 AM
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In the days when Boston Whaler published a pocket size book of specifications and options, if you ordered a bare hull Montauk......it was still a Montauk.....
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| Joe Kriz |
Posted on 10/04/11 - 11:07 AM
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Keven,
If you have any problems with that then I would suggest contacting Boston Whaler directly.
If you are blaming this site, then you seem to be blaming the wrong group of people.
Boston Whaler designed it this way for the older Classic models giving them choices of different interiors which also changed the name of the model.
If you took a Nauset and add a factory stern seat, then it becomes an Eastport model.
If you took a Nauset and replaced the pilot bench seat with an RPS and added a forward platform it became a Sakonnet model.
This was intentional back in those days and gave the appearance of different models built on the exact same hull.
For our use here, we follow Boston Whalers method and then have to go one step further with a "Custom" model due to the fact that many people completely remove the interior and replace it with aftermarket parts.
Another reason for a Custom model designation is once the boat interior is no longer original or recognized, no one can tell what model it used to be. So, if I show you a photo of this boat below and tell people it is a Montauk, then everyone will think all Montauks look like this.
http://www.whalercentral.com/images/p...le-1-1.jpg
The above link is NOT a Montauk model.
Can anyone tell me what model the Whaler is in the above link?
No they can't and that is why we have to use a the term of Custom model just like with Cars, Airplanes, etc....
Cars are different as an interior change you wouldn't probably notice unless you looked inside the car. But here is one for you. If you took a Corvette and pulled the body off and put a VW body on that Corvette frame, what would the car look like as it drove by you? It would look like a VW, however in reality it wouldn't be a VW or a Corvette, it would be a Custom car......
Some people seem to be afraid of the term Custom, where I would think they should be proud on how they setup their boat to suit them. There is absolutely nothing wrong with a customized or Custom model.
We just have to call them what they are.
This basically doesn't happen with the newer models as only one model is generally built on that same size hull.
Example: Montauk 170, Super Sport 170, Outrage 190..... Even though someone may change the seat, it is still the same model because it can't be any other model...
Hope this helps clarify this problem for you.
Last word for you Customizers and Custom model owners..... Some people will love your boat and others won't like it as much.
It's just the way it is with Cars, Boats, and anything else.... Whatever suits your needs, go for it and please post photos in an outside album or create a personal page so we can all see your Custom model.
Take a look through the personal pages at all the Custom models and see what others have done.
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| Joe Kriz |
Posted on 10/04/11 - 11:08 AM
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moretrench,
No, it was called a "Bare Hull".
Take a look at the older catalogs and the older price lists.
You can still order some Bare Hulls today and customize them the way you want.
Edited by Joe Kriz on 10/04/11 - 11:15 AM |
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| Gamalot |
Posted on 10/04/11 - 11:08 AM
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Great discussion! Chuck Bennett at BW can usually tell you from the stencil number what Model your hull was the day it left the factory. In many cases, if your stencil number is gone then your hull could have been any of the models built on that particular hull.
Lets play the reverse of this and say we have a 1975 16' 7" Smirkless hull and it has the correct RPS and CC then it is a Montauk. You could also change the furniture and make it some other models. You can also buy a 1969 Cuda that came from the factory with a 6 cylinder engine. Do a few changes and drop a hemi in it and it will never be a Hemi Cuda!
Be happy that BW gave us some options to make them anything we want! We can also add things to a Montauk and as long as we leave the original furniture they remain Montauks. Back in 1974 when my Montauk was made you could spend a small fortune on Period Correct optional equipment such as Forward fishing platforms and forward fishing seats as well as rear platforms with seats with live-wells. I have never seen a classic with every available BW option but I am sure there are a few that have or had them all either from the factory or dealer installed.
I do not find the term custom when used here at WC to be offensive in any way and it just tells us some changes have been made from the original layout.
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| Joe Kriz |
Posted on 10/04/11 - 2:52 PM
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Maybe this price list for a Bare Hull in 1977 will help.
Bare Hull came standard with:
Bow Eye
Bow Norman Pin
Drain Plug
Heavy Duty Rub Rail Kit
Mahogany Bow Locker Cover
Ski Eye
Stainless Steel Side Rails
That's it... Nothing more, Nothing less.....
At he bottom of the photo below, Note this:
"The bare hull 17' offers customization of interiors."
If you take a bare hull and add an interior, according to Boston Whaler, you are customizing it. It is no longer a bare hull if you added seats, console, or something similar. It becomes a customized or Custom model.
The same goes for other models.
A Montauk includes certain factory items and so listed in the price list and configuration. If those items are no longer in the boat, then who knows what model it is or was? Thus it has been customized or now a Custom model.
Joe Kriz attached the following image:
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| Sax416 |
Posted on 10/04/11 - 4:25 PM
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Chevy 1500... The frame and drivetrain are the same on most models. You could have a pickup, a tahoe, an avalanche, a suburban... If you originally had a 1500 avalanche and the body rotted out on it, found a suburban body and put it on the frame what would you have. The serial number might say you have an avalanche but u better make sure you change that on your reg in cas eyou get pulled over by a cop. He's gonna see you are driving a suburban.
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| Keven |
Posted on 10/05/11 - 1:47 PM
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I am not taking offense to anyone or anything. I guess there are just two different trains of thought. If I took the previously mentioned 1993 Mustang GT, and added all the Cobra body parts and accessories....it would still never be a Cobra. Or If you made an exact copy of a Shelby Cobra with the Factory Five kit....its not a Shelby Cobra. To me, he mere fact that Chuck can look at our stencil number and determine what model boat it is should indicate exactly that...what model boat it is. A customized Montauk should be a customized Montauk...not a Eastport. Same with cars....the VIN will tell you what it really is, not what it is hiding behind. When does a customization turn a Montauk into a custom? What if you keep the same layout and change certain wood items to starboard?
1981 15' Custom powered by 2005 Yamaha F60 |
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| John Fyke |
Posted on 10/05/11 - 2:35 PM
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I think the difference between cars and boats is cars (customized or altered to be close to something else) become Clones and boats become custom.
Edited by John Fyke on 10/05/11 - 2:35 PM
John Fyke
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1979 15' Sport with Super Sport conversion and 70hp mercury. |
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| kamie |
Posted on 10/05/11 - 2:42 PM
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With the stencil number Chuck can look up your hull and tell you how it left the factory, not what it currently is. My 13 footer left the factory as a sport model in 1971, when I finish the gelcoat and the new interior what will it be? that all depends on what what interior I use, if I put the standard sport interior, it will be a sport, if I do a modified dual console interior it will be a custom 13 footer. If I install a Super Sport interior will it be a Super Sport, nope, it will still be a custom 13 footer because there was no Boston Whaler Super Sport in 1971, that model didn't exist until 1984. The nice thing about Whalers was that you could customize them, with or without rails, with or without seats or rps or leaning post. It's really why people love Whalers because you could make the boat uniquely your own.
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| Gamalot |
Posted on 10/05/11 - 2:51 PM
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Well, we can continue splitting hairs here but this site has a way of doing things and we have to go along with that.
I will say it another way and possibly a way you can understand it. The hull is the same on a number of different models. Only the interior furniture gets changed and that is what determines the model name. A Montauk gets a Center Console and RPS seat while other models may have a side console and fixed chairs. As Joe mentioned, you can buy a bare hull and all the furniture to make it any model you want. The hull becomes customized when ever you mix and match furnishings or change a console from an original BW one to some other brand or style. Likewise if you change the RPS from a Montauk and install two swivel chairs then you have customized a Montauk. You can call it what ever you like but here at WC we will always call a non stock boat a custom.
I do wish I was more knowledgeable about the models and on this computer as I would show a picture of 3 or 4 different models side by side and all built on the exact same hull but with different furniture and layouts.
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| Gamalot |
Posted on 10/05/11 - 3:01 PM
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John Fyke wrote:
I think the difference between cars and boats is cars (customized or altered to be close to something else) become Clones and boats become custom.
There is 3 different Shelby AC Cobras in this general area and all are Replicas. I love all of them and they sure do turn heads but when it comes right down to the numbers they are millions away from the real deal and likely to be better driver cars.
I love the fact that we can buy an old 16' 7 hull that has absolutely nothing left in or on it and set out to make it in to any of the models that hull came in.
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| spuds |
Posted on 10/05/11 - 3:06 PM
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Keven wrote:
To me, he mere fact that Chuck can look at our stencil number and determine what model boat it is should indicate exactly that...what model boat it is. A customized Montauk should be a customized Montauk...not a Eastport.
I guess that was along the lines of my thoughts. My Nauset has been a Nauset for 50 years. If I were to add a rear seat, which I am thinking about doing. To me it's still a Nauset... modified to an Eastport.
It just seems that if the original model is known, then that designation should stay with the hull. Example:
1967 Nauset - Customized (Fiberglass Console and RPS added)
A couple more examples: say someone took the cap off a 1978 19 Outrage Banana Hull. Is it now really a Lo-Profile Model, which are fairly rare and hard to come by.
Or if someone took the cap off a 1974 19 Outrage Banana Hull. Is it now really a Lo-Profile Model, if they weren't made till 1977? (We do have a 1973 Lo-Pro listed in the owners list)
To me, these would be 19 Outrages, modified to a Lo-Pro.
IMHO keep their born-on name, if known.
1985 Outrage 18 |
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| moretrench1 |
Posted on 10/05/11 - 4:10 PM
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The debate as to a particular model versus a custom tag is an exercise in semantics.
I believe you should be buying the design of a hull which can perform to satisfy your boating needs. What happens inside the hull is a matter of personal choice. After all, look at 20 Montauks and they'll all be rigged differently.
Regardless if Whaler marketed their 17 as a bare hull, Stripper or Montaulk, the decision to purchase should be about the hull's performance in the water,
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| John Fyke |
Posted on 10/05/11 - 4:17 PM
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moretrench1 wrote:
The debate as to a particular model versus a custom tag is an exercise in semantics.
I believe you should be buying the design of a hull which can perform to satisfy your boating needs. What happens inside the hull is a matter of personal choice. After all, look at 20 Montauks and they'll all be rigged differently.
Regardless if Whaler marketed their 17 as a bare hull, Stripper or Montaulk, the decision to purchase should be about the hull's performance in the water,
Rigging and dissplacment of furniture are two different things. I'm keeping to myself about my oppinion and going with the forum and Boston Whaler as they say fits.
John Fyke
Re-Fit or Reef It
1979 15' Sport with Super Sport conversion and 70hp mercury. |
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| Joe Kriz |
Posted on 10/10/11 - 3:34 PM
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Keven wrote:
To me, the mere fact that Chuck can look at our stencil number and determine what model boat it is should indicate exactly that...what model boat it is. A customized Montauk should be a customized Montauk...not a Eastport.
He cannot tell you what model it IS
He can only tell you what model it WAS when it left the factory.
It is what it is, not what it was...
So, in following what Boston Whaler started with customizing the different hulls into different models, here is our bottom line which we will follow until the end of time.
If we can no longer recognize what model the boat is, due to removing the original interior and replacing it with unknown or non Whaler parts, the model then is a customized or "Custom" model.
A Customized model is a Custom model no matter how anyone else wants to look at it.
Look at the attachment below and the first smaller photo within the large photo. This is directly from a Boston Whaler catalog.
Here, Boston Whaler says, "Three example of custom rigs designed and built by the customer."
From the posts here, it looks like almost everyone is agreeing with Boston Whaler.
End of story and thanks for bringing this up.
Joe Kriz attached the following image:
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Edited by Joe Kriz on 10/10/11 - 5:43 PM |
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| Joe Kriz |
Posted on 09/25/13 - 5:53 PM
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spuds wrote:
I guess that was along the lines of my thoughts. My Nauset has been a Nauset for 50 years. If I were to add a rear seat, which I am thinking about doing. To me it's still a Nauset... modified to an Eastport.
Spuds,
Then you would be wrong according to Boston Whaler information that they have posted for many years in their catalogs and price lists.
See the attachment below on what makes an Eastport.
You would then have an Eastport model.
Joe Kriz attached the following image:
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