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Smart Tabs XL on a 1992 16SL
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| jimmyrinaldi |
Posted on 04/04/09 - 4:50 PM
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I just put a pair of these on my 1992 16SL which as many of you know is infamous for porpoising and stabilty issues. They surpassed my expectations. I was able to sit in my chair for the first time since I bought Mandarina... No abnormal bow rise, no porpoising, top speed smooth in chop and wind... Fast to plane. It was also easier to steer with no fin on my 90TLR... I could swear I had less engine noise too but it was pretty windy so I am not sure. I have tried hydrofoils and a propguard with no success. These things really work and adjust by themselves. The pair I bought brand new from eBay was cheap too... $150 bucks. I was almost ready to give up and repower with a smaller OB... Mandarina is a new girl !!! Finally !!! Here is the web sight. Make sure you watch the video. Mandarina was behaving just like the test boat featured... http://www.nauticusinc.com/
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| Bake |
Posted on 04/04/09 - 5:38 PM
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very cool. I have not owned a pair of the smart tabs. I did however fashion a set of fixed tabs on the back of a 14 mckee I had years ago. I had the same results as you describe with the smart tabs. mine was just a piece of aluminum about 9 inches long and stuck off the back of the boat about 4 inches. before my home made tabs I could not run the boat at wot even with the motor tucked all the way in. after the tabs I could trim it way out and get up riding on the pad. I suggested the smart tabs in a post a while back for a guy having problems with the ride of a 13 footer. I about got laughed off the forum while people suggested every thing from moving the gas tank forward to throwing sand bags in the bow.
Extending the running surface of a boat is a great way to combat a bad ride and smart tabs are a cheap way to do it.
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| jimmyrinaldi |
Posted on 04/05/09 - 3:06 PM
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The cool thing about these is they adjust independently up/down to boat speed and turns. At rest they are in a 25 degree down position. At full throttle they were level but exerting 60 lbs down. My boat length and power called for 60 lb actuators. They have a chart for boat length and power for different size tabs with different strength actuators. I had my buddy drive as I watch them and they were constantly (and automatically) adjusting to speed changes and turns. It was very cool to see them at slightly different angles in turns. You just can't do that with hydrolic trim tabs... In fact I would dare say these are superior to manual trim tabs.
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| Nautijohn |
Posted on 04/07/09 - 7:27 AM
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Thanks for posting your test results, and we are pleased.
Bake:
We have tried to get Whaler to look at our Smart Tabs without success. They like other boat manufacturers are affraid that their competetors will tell the age old lie that "if the boat needs trim tabs there is something wrong with the hull". Not only is that not true, it is an ignorant statement.
The reason the boat handles better with the trim tabs is that the tabs change the hull design to compensate for the changes in conditions ( speed, waves, load, etc).
Marketing drives the design and equipment. Sometimes they are stuck in the black and white TV days.
In any event - they work and work well, and we appreciate your posting.
John |
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| jimmyrinaldi |
Posted on 04/08/09 - 9:52 AM
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The issue with the SL16 is not the hull but the weight at the aft end... Mandarina would hop like a bunny even on glass with or with out a hydrofoil. 1 260 lb motor, 2 marine batteries, and 22 gallons of fuel in a tank mounted where ? In the aft end of course... What is interesting is that the SL16 performance issues vanish when the tank is empty. With the problem solved however you have no fuel left !!! Tabs give the aft the lift to compensate for the aft weight and the SL16 behaves wonderfully. I am sure hydrolic manual tabs would accomplish the same end but would need constant adjustment to match what Smart Tabs do all by themselves... It is great to find an affordable product that does exactly what it claims to do. I am thrilled to have stumbled accross them and give them my highest recommendation to boaters with similar issues.
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| Nautijohn |
Posted on 04/08/09 - 10:27 AM
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Jimmy;
I did not mean to say that they had a hull design issue. What I was saying is that this has been a common excuse for not using trim tabs. That is why it is an ignorant statement. The issue is balance, and any boat with the motor (of any weight) located at or on the transom is subject to balance issues. 90% of boat performance is balance related.
John |
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| Jeff |
Posted on 04/08/09 - 10:53 AM
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I would not say Whaler is living in the Black and White days. I would image they are looking at as I did when I purchased my tabs. I personally looked at the smart tabs but could not understand why I would want to install a set of tabs I could not control and actuate while underway from the helm. As sea conditions change you want to be able to correctly trim your boat for the desired ride. I bought and installed a set of Lenco's and loved them. You can find a set of 9x9's or for about $400 with the switch. I have looked at a couple boats with smart tabs and they strike me as looking like a fix for a poor riding boat. A set of Bennett's or Lenco's look like someone invested the money to rig a boat right. That is just my personal take.
Anyway I see at lot of new Whalers offered today have the option of adding Lenco tabs.
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| jimmyrinaldi |
Posted on 04/08/09 - 11:16 AM
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Yeah u r missing the point of Smart Tabs. They trim themselves to match whatever is going on instantly. They also do it independantly during turns. You could not possible do that manually with near the precision or reaction time.. They are also less than half the price...
John, maybe you should charge more !!! LOL
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| Bake |
Posted on 04/08/09 - 12:10 PM
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I think the point is understood by those who have responded. The ability to change the tabs while under way is huge. I completely understand great ride for less money is a good thing. more options for control for more money is also a great thing. This is America for goodness sake shelling money out for options is a way of life. Even in this economy folks are still finding money to feed the need.
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| Jeff |
Posted on 04/08/09 - 2:40 PM
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jimmyrinaldi wrote:
Yeah u r missing the point of Smart Tabs. They trim themselves to match whatever is going on instantly. They also do it independantly during turns. You could not possible do that manually with near the precision or reaction time.. They are also less than half the price...
John, maybe you should charge more !!! LOL
I feel like I am in an infomercial.
Jimmy,
Smart tabs are always forcing themselves down against the water running off the hull bottom. In this case you are always forcing the bow down. You do not always want that. There is no adjustment ability what so ever and you are at the mercy of what they want to do. Their position is dependent upon the speed of the boat and forces of the running water. This is why when you are in a turn the inside tab will raise because the force of the water flow is increasing. These tabs also do not allow adjustment for off balance lateral loads. With real trim tabs if the boat is running on plane with a list to one side or the other, you can adjust that side up by bringing the bow down on the other side or, bring the bow up on the lower side.
For me when running at high speeds on flat water I would adjust the tabs up bringing the bow all the way up. Also, since the tabs were raise up and out of the majority of running water this greatly reduced the drag from the tabs. When running at speed in head seas I would crank the tabs way down and really force the bow into the water to cut through the oncoming waves. You never had to change your speed to change the attitude of the boat. When I just wanted to putts along watching the sun go down over Lake Michigan I would crank the tabs all the way down and plane my 22 Outrage off at run at 12-14 mph or less.
With captain controlled actuating tabs it does not matter the speed, you are able to set the tabs to meet your needs. This is where controlled actuating trim tabs shine. It is just like an automatic vs a manual transmission. Sure, the automatic takes care of all of thinking for you but, it does not always do what you need nor, want it to do. With a manual you are the one in control. It might take some thinking but, you are able to set the gear and shift when it calls for it to get the most out of your powertrain. Yes, I only own manual transmission cars. For me, when it comes down to it, if I am going to spend money I am going to purchase what is going to surely do the job correctly the first time. Personally I think for the extra control you get out of real tabs for an extra $250 ($400+ in my case as I got the switch with the trim indicator) is a dirt cheap up grade in the grand scheme of boat ownership. Heck I spent that in new fuel hosing and fittings alone for the 22. Also, I only want to drill holes below the waterline once to mount a set of tabs.
If you have never run a boat nor Whaler with controllable trim tabs try it and you will understand. I would welcome you aboard our 22' Guardian any day as the Outrage is since sold. The guardian is running Bennett planes with retrofitted Lenco actuators.
Off tabs here,
Before you installed the smart tabs had you tried changing the trim angle of the motor while on plane, mounted position height of the motor or, multiple propeller's to see if any of those would solve the problem? If so,. what were the findings with the change in trim of the motor? What about the mounting height change and where is the motor mounted now? And what model and size / pitch of propellers were used or what is currently on your boat? This info would be helpful for someone like Tom W Clark to answer if the problem may have laid in on of those areas.
Nautijohn wrote:
90% of boat performance is balance related.
John, So something such as one's prop selection for a given boat / motor combination is equal to 10% or less of the boats overall performance or is that in the 90%? What design, weight, or thrust factors fall in the 10% of non-balance related performance problems?
Edited by Jeff on 04/08/09 - 5:55 PM |
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| jimmyrinaldi |
Posted on 04/08/09 - 7:21 PM
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LOL I am receiving no fees for my posts here...
I am just so relieved to have a happy boat now and my fellow 16SLers must be having similar issues as me. I know of three here at Whaler Central. I was so pumped about finding my Whaler with a nice trailer at such a great price... The stability of this boat however was a real problem with my young children. I spent hours and gallons trying to find the right trim setting and the results varied based on how much fuel and/or bodies I had aboard... I did not try to move my motor but I did toy with a Sting Ray foil and a 14 inch prop guard with poor results. I did entertain the idea of installing an extended transom mount. So needless to say, I was very pleased to find an option that did not include more wires and switches, moving my tank, motor mount or whatever else I tried or may have tried.... All I had to do was spend an hour slapping these on and all of my stability issues went away...
The interesting thing about these tabs are they are based on the same technology as traditional tabs, but you are right about the pressure being constantly applied downward. With manual tabs there is none when they are flat so that is an interesting point. I had issues on glass so maybe that downward pressure for me is needed on my 16SL ? (deep V hull, 90HP OB, and only 16 feet) Maybe John can comment on that ?
My goal was a simple solution with out a major mod and that is exactly what I got. In contrast to prop guards and hydrofoils, these tabs really work, cost less, and I am happy as a clam...
Please note that the Brand Name of this product was not mentioned in this post... although it deserved to be... 
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| Royboy |
Posted on 04/08/09 - 10:36 PM
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Although there are times when I'd like the control of powered tabs on my 17 outrage, I love my Smart Tabs and wouldn't run this hull without them. Saying that they "always force the bow down" is not exactly true. While they have a static down trim, they can be tuned to the dynamics of the boat, both in angle and in the strength of the struts.
In my case, the hull would porpoise badly with any kind of a load (full tank, more than two passengers, etc.) and engine trim to correct it was completely inadequate. After installing my Smart Tabs I have a full range of control, I'm on plane in a boat length, and no more porpoising regardless of the load. For the price they are truly a bargain and extremely well made.
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| Nautijohn |
Posted on 04/09/09 - 7:01 AM
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Jeff;
After 10 years of selling, testing, and designing these Smart Tabs, I have heard everything you are saying from other people before. Your conclusions are drawn from assumptions based on the description of how the system works. Unfortunately these assumptions are made minus a few key points that don't seem to be important but are.
Let me make this a bit more clear: You would be correct is assuming that the constant downward pressure of the tabs would drive the bow constantly down, if the pressure was great enough to do that, and if the plates actually stayed in a deployed state. This is why we categorize boats by size , type, and engine size and type. Then we provide an adjustment capability so that the system can be "tune" to the individual characteristics of the particular boat.
To insure that this downward pressure does not increase beyond the specified and adjusted pressure, the stroke of the actuator is longer than necessary to bring the plate to a horizontal position, it can actually retract 10 to 12 degrees above horizontal or flush with the bottom of the boat. In short if the system is set to provide 63 lb. of downward pressure that all you get (when on plane). Any helm controlled system could provide hundreds of lb. of downward force with minimal deflection (say 1/2" depending on speed.
Next, because the Smart Tabs system is active 100% of the time, the action and reaction is similar to the suspension system on your car. Also understand that the motor trim remains uninhibited, so that you can trim the bow up or down.
WE tell all of our customers that if the boat looses any top speed (with correct motor trim) then the pressure setting is too high. The loss of speed is due to too much bow down angle. We never want to see that. Hydrofoils and any fixed trim tabs (which Hydrofoils are) will most often cause a reduction in speed because of excessive stern lift and resulting bow down angle.
What you end up with is just enough stern lift (when cruising) to control the ride and boat attitude.
The single best advantage is that the system is continuously working to keep the boat in the best attitude.
The down side is that excessive side to side balance can not be corrected as well as it could be with helm controlled tabs. When controlling the tabs from the helm you could fully deploy one while leaving the other up and create huge amounts of lift. However, the side to side correction on smaller boats (20' and under) is easier to correct, and generally not an issue.
One down sides to adjusting the tabs from the helm on a small, fast, light boat is the violent reaction in attitude (side to side for example) that occurs when only one tab is deployed either a bit too much or by accident. Actually this is one of the reasons the manufacturers avoid Tabs on smaller boat. It becomes a potential product liability issue.
Frankly; if you know how to use helm controlled tabs, and that is your preference by all means go for it. The boat will become a much more enjoyable craft.
One more "techy" point. We use a nitrogen gas actuator and not a coil or torsion spring because of the characteristics of these two devices. Springs increase in resistance as they are compressed which would be counter productive in our application. Once on plane we want less resistance (pressure). The gas actuator has more resistance during the compression mode and less resistance during the maintenance (retracted) mode by about 32%. It works well for this application because we get more down force while accelerating to plane and less force once on plane.
The point I was making with my prior statements has nothing to do with the advantages of hel controlled tabs vs. Smart Tabs, it was directed at the benefits of using tabs period. If you have a smaller boat Smart Tabs are likely to be your best bang for the buck.
John |
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| Nautijohn |
Posted on 04/09/09 - 7:12 AM
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Jeff;
Regarding balance - Nearly all of the manufacturers that I have talked to over the years are concerned with balance. Where the engine is located (I/O's,) the tank, batteries, seating, etc. Too much weight aft is no good, too much weight forward is no good. Once the boat is built, there is little you can do to change the balance. Yes you can raise the engine (outboards) to change the X dim. You can shift weight of movable items, you can change props to get more stern lift, etc. However, none of these can be changed or adjusted, or self adjust while the boat is in use. Therefore "maintaining" balance is the single best performance enhancement for any boat.
John |
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| CES |
Posted on 04/09/09 - 7:22 AM
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This is probably the best thread I have read yet on this site as I was not aware of how much went into trim tabs on a small boat. Thanks for the great information guys!
Cliff
1966 13' Sport with a 1993 40hp Yamaha 2 Smoker |
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| jimmyrinaldi |
Posted on 04/10/09 - 4:16 PM
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Cliff I am glad. I never would have thought my 16SL would have needed tabs or that they would fix my stability issues. I was under the same impression that tabs were for bigger boats... I have some guy on Boattrader.com who was selling a 16SL with manual tabs to thank for the idea. Then I ran across Smart Tabs and here we are...
Edited by jimmyrinaldi on 04/10/09 - 4:33 PM |
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| Jeff |
Posted on 04/11/09 - 12:09 PM
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Jimmy,
As asked earlier, Did you try changing the mounting height of your motor before installing the tabs? Porpoising and heavy steering are often caused by a motor being mounted at the incorrect height (or not trimmed correctly). This is often a cure and costs NOTHING.
If you changed the mounting position, what performance and handling changes did you see at the different locations.
While this does cost money...What about different props? Did you try any. Some times a different prop can help achive more bow or stern lift.
Tom W Clark is the one here who can clearly outline the rights and wrongs for your boat / motor combo in these areas for sure.
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| Royboy |
Posted on 04/11/09 - 7:18 PM
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I can't speak for anyone else, but I can tell you that I looked into motor height to cure my handling problems, but found that the direction I'd need to go (up) wasn't possible (engine already up as far as possible.). Regardless, this would not have been free; my engine weighs some 492 lbs and I don't posses equipment to safely handle such an operation. Having this done at a marina has got to cost at least $150, and the time I don't have my boat while they do it. As for props, I'd have a tough time finding a stainless steel replacement for $150 (cost of a pair of smart tabs).
The fact of the matter is that Smart tabs can vastly improve the handling of certain small Whalers (the 17 Outrage, for one), and do it for very little cost. It's known as a win-win situation.
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| jimmyrinaldi |
Posted on 04/11/09 - 10:40 PM
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I spent hours and gallons as stated above on finding the right motor angle. It was more stable all the way down but I lost significant speed and rpms. Set at a nice angle up I gain speed and rpms but she bucked like bronco. I topped out at 40mph with an empty tank on a foil no tabs last season. Good thing I had a 5 gallon tank with me as backup cause I ran out of gas working on this issue. The less fuel I had aboard the better she behaved.
No I did not move my motor and I have a 3 blade 17-k prop. My outboard is a 92 90tlr long shaft that is as far down as it will go. I have enough holes to move it up almost 3 inches. That is a project I could not do for free either. I lack the equipment to move a 300lb outboard and it I am uncertain 3 inches would make a difference. I know my limits and that job is not a home project for me.
I am convinced the bad behavior of the SL16 is simply weight and the deep V hull. 22 gallons of gas, a 300lb motor, 2 batteries. Put that together with a 90hp on a bow light 16 footer and that spells trouble. If my heavy steering issue was caused by the mount height I would probably still have the same problem but now I do not with tabs and no foil. I think it is due to the removal of my hydrofoil. I am no longer using my outboard as a trim tab... I will never use a hydrofoil again.
I am also convinced my problems would have been solved with manual tabs too, but Smart Tabs are simple, rugged, inexpensive, and work by themselves. They fixed my whaler ! Full tank, high wind, choppy lake, 2 200lb guys aboard and she was a new vessel... Still fast but now stable. I was happily stunned at how good these things worked...
I will post some pics of my new tabs on my page next time I go out. They look good too...
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| Nautijohn |
Posted on 04/13/09 - 10:55 AM
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Hi Jeff;
I would agree with you that making sure the boat is set up correctly (motor height, prop, trim, etc. is important and can make a significant change the the overall handling of the boat. What I do not like to see is the continued use of the prop to controll or correct the ride and handling of the boat. In many cases porpoising is corrected by negative trim. This means that the prop is used to lift the stern which keeps the bow down and avoids porpoising. The problem here is that this use of the prop ia a compromise to the forward thrust or prop efficiency. The result is a loss of speed and fuel economy. Why not let the trim tabs controll the ride and handling in the same fashion as the suspension on a car (big or small). This does not mean that the hull is poorly designed, it simply means that the design can change to address the conditions.
John |
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