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I'm in the process of buying a 1983 22' Outrage and have been reading about water in the hull. This boat has 2 holes, both on the starboard side of the spray rail, and they look more like rot at this point (I haven't had a chance to do any exploratory). So I'm guessing there was a puncture at some point and maybe there is wood for the spray rail base that eventually rotted? From looking at pictures on this site, and comparing them to the boat I'm buying, mine clearly sits about 3" lower in the water at the transom (could be rigging, not sure how the previous owner had it set up). Given that it has 2 visible holes in the bottom, I'm pretty sure there's water inside. From reading the posts here it seems the best I can do is make sure everything's sealed up tight. I was toying with the idea of using a vac pump to try and get some water out, but it seems what I'd be able to get out may only be a fraction of what's in the foam? I'm wondering why Whaler would use a foam that's water permeable (maybe everything is at some point?), and does this affect the "unsinkability" of the hull in any way? Given current gas prices, I don't want to be pushing around a lot of extra water weight if I can help it! Thanks.
Vac pump sounds interesting. Let us know how that goes. How big are the holes?
Regarding whether soaked foam will alter the "unsinkability," the answer is a qualified yes. If you have 200 lbs of water in the foam, it's like having 200 extra pounds of gear onboard. I think I read that a Montauk has 2000 lbs of swamped bouyancy. That is, if the boat is swamped, it would take 2000 lbs to sink her, due to the bouyancy of the foam. Using that model, the water would reduce her "unsinkability" by ten percent. As you pointed out, the extra weight will also cause her to ride lower in the water, and affect gas mileage.
I'm sure others will jump in here, hopefully with accurate figures. The oft-repeated suggestion of weighing the boat is a good one, but accurate figures of what each model should weigh if dry, and what equipment is included in the weight total, is hard to come by.
My '69 16foot7inch hull definitely had water intrusion. I did a lot to get it out, and was only partially successful. I still have test / drain holes in the bottom near the keel, but have sealed up abovedecks. Getting ready to flip her over and finish the bottom. In the end, I'm going to seal it all up and enjoy the boat the rest of the summer, and then drill again for winter storage. I have the feeling that many used boats out there have water in them. Holes get patched up and covered with bottom paint, drain tubes go out and are replaced, etc. But they still hang in there. Whalers are quality, long-lived boats, and the ones that are cared for, just like anything else, will be that much the better throughout their useful lives. See my personal page, below, for more on the battle.
Enjoy your new boat, and hang around... the folks around here are first class, and helpful as all get out!
Thanks for the reply Dan. The holes, interestingly enough, are only on the vertical section of the starboard spray rail, which is only what, an inch high or so? One hole is at the very back end of the spray rail, and the other is about in the middle, both about 3" give or take. Makes me think something (maybe a trailer) at some point perforated it and over time it just rotted away.
Your point about boats that are cared for is well taken, and I'm not sure this one was unfortunately. When I first saw it my gut feeling was to pass on it, but as I sat, could see the potential. It's got spider web cracks at the base of the rail mounts, cracks in the corners where the transom meets the splash well, and a crack at the top of the transom under the motor. Nothing huge but indicators of some stress for sure. The bad part is the previous owner just moored it for the summer in salt water in front of his house, used a boat yard to get it in and out, and was completely unaware of the holes in the bottom. So it had a chance for a good long soak each season I'm guessing. Figure I'll get it leak proof and sea worthy, run it this summer, then decide if I want to dive in and do a decent restore. When I was a kid, I used to have a 13' Whaler (one of the guys who used to work at the old factory a few miles north of here said it was one of the first 10 ever made), and have always wanted a 22' Outrage. Love the way they look, especially the well cared for ones...
So I'll dive in later in the week and see what I can uncover underneath and go from there. In any case, it should be an adventure... And I already get the feeling that this is a great site with some excellent people, VERY glad I found it! Thanks again for your input, Dave
I have done extensive research and investigation of wet Whalers. There is a great deal of information I have reported elsewhere so I will not reiterate it all here but let me hit some of the high points:
Boston Whaler does not, nor has it ever, used anything but closed cell polyurethane foam in the hulls of their boats. Close cell polyurethane foam does not absorb water like a sponge. It is not permeable except under extraordinary circumstances such as a puncture in the hull that allows water to be hydrostatically forced into the foam core as well as separating the fiberglass skin form the foam core (delamination.)
It is also speculated that a freeze/thaw cycle can break down the cell walls of the foam and allow water to be drawn to adjacent cells via capillary action. A third theory suggests that water can be driven through the foam be means of vapor drive where the water is turned to vapor by heat and the water vapor can move through the foam and then condense back into water.
Once a foam core is wet, there is no removing the water completely. A great deal of time can allow some or perhaps most water to be removed but no weekend solution is going to anything but allow a little water to drip out.
I have personally tried using a suction pump on a VERY wet Whaler hull and the results were completely disappointing. Over the course of several days I was only able to remove about two quarts of water from a 13 foot hull that held (by my estimate) 80 gallons of water.
Weighing a Whaler hull is the only really good way to determine if a hull has SIGNIFICANT water in it. There is no way to quantify small amounts of water in a foam core. It is NOT difficult to determine what a given Whaler hull should weigh nor is it difficult to determine what is included in a specified hull's weight; all standard equipment is included, all optional and dealer installed equipment and fuel is not.
I think the idea of drilling a few holes in the low points before winter storage is a good one. Storing the boat somewhere that is warm and dry probably wouldn't hurt either.
But for now, I'm goin fishin.
Thanks for the replies Tom and Arthur. I'm not sure how I'd go about weighing the hull, so I may just drill a few exploratory holes to see if that verifies water, then seal everything up. At that point I'll dunk it and see how it sits in the water, planes, and runs and just live with it as it seems there's no effective means of dealing, short of major surgery if there is water in the hull/foam. Dave
I heard one good thing about salt water but I'm not sure how true it is.
Someone said when you get salt water in your hull, it won't rot like freshwater will.
Makes sense. Salt cured?
Dave,
getting the weight of the boat isn't as hard as you think. Check for truck stops near you that have certified scales or my new free favorite, any industrial place that loads trucks for transit. In my case, the local lumber mill has a truck scale across the road from their building and it transmits to an LED display on the store.
Take stock of all the stuff you have on the boat and leave at home any junk, anchor, PDFs, coolers that sort of stuff. You want the boat as stock as possible, as stripped as possible, console, seats, engine, rigging and not much else. If your going to a certified scale CAT has great instructions on their web site, basically drive onto the scale and position the steer (front), drive (rear) and trailer axles over the scales and tell the attendant your a private vehicle. Once you get the weight, go drop your trailer and weight your car/truck by driving over the scale again. Tell the operator private vehicle; reweigh and at CAT scale the second weight is only a dollar, pay for your weights. If you have the opportunity, go drop the boat in the water and, leaving it with a friend you trust and go weigh the truck/trailer empty which will give you the exact weight of the boat; First weight - last weight = boat weight. If you have to drive a lot, make sure you fill up the truck gas tank or you will need to estimate gallons or gas. Also before you start, make sure the boat tank is full so you can estimate the weight of the boat minus fuel, engine, rigging. To estimate how much your over the published weight, estimate engine and rigging weight, plus anything like stern seats that were not on the standard configuration. Subtract all that plus the weight of the gas (at 6 pounds per gallon) and compare to the published weight. I estimate rigging, plus oil, plus electrical wires, control cables to be around 100 pounds, not sure if I am high or low with that guess.
With all three sets of weights you can
1. Calculate boat weight vs published weight to check for water
2. Calculate trailer tongue weight for safe trailering
3. Calculate how far to move your trailer axle or shift the boat if your trailer tongue weight is too light or to heavy to achieve safe trailering.
4. Make sure you are within published limits of your tow vehicle.
For # 2 to 4 on the list, make sure you add back in to the weights any items you left off, such as pdfs, anchor, ect if you normally carry that in the boat. All or most of those can be weighted on a standard bathroom scale.
Thanks for the reply Kamie. I picked up the boat earlier today at the boat yard after getting the new trailer. They had to lift it off of the jacks and onto the trailer with the cradle hoist, so I asked the guy if the scale on that was accurate, and he thought so. Granted, I didn't have time to remove the batteries and spare gas tanks, 2 bumpers, the electronics, a few life jackets, and some line, but the guy said the total rig weighed in at just under 4000 lb. Keep in mind it has a 235 Hp Johnson (1986) and what I'd call a medium duty aluminum bimini set up. The two plastic gas tanks didn't have much in them 5-7 gallons at the most, and the previous owner didn't use the internal tank and didn't think there was much left in there, but didn't know exactly, so that's a bit of a variable. Given all that, it seems like there's the potential for there to be a couple hundred pounds of water in there anyway, would you agree?
I don't know exactly what's on the boat, do you have the standard or super console for one? It's possible that your within a couple hundred pounds which really isn't that much. Remember, the hull was hand laid, so variations are possible over or under the published weight. Published weight for the 22 was 2050 pounds, with standard console and captains chairs, yours could have started out at 2050, or 2150 or 2025. If you think your within a couple hundred pounds, I would patch the holes and not worry about the possible water.
I have the larger console, so I assume that's the super? And the leaning post has storage behind it. I've tried to attach a pic to give you an idea, and it's under the max size, but it doesn't seem to post.... The guy at the boat yard said the engine weighs 800 lbs, which would put me in the no-worry couple of hundred pounds category, but I just looked up the weight on Nada and it's only 450 lbs. So by my estimation I'm up in the 900+ lb range...
The weight from the scales is about what I would expect.
You know I spent days working myself into panic over the same thing when I bought my boat. When I had my boat surveyed back in 04 before I bought it the guy who surveyed the boat stated it have some elevated levels of moisture in the hull towards the stern. The way he said it and what he implied of course FREAKED me out. I was all in a panic thinking that I was going to get a wet hull. After thinking about and doing lots of reading I called him back. After a short discussion I realized this guy unfortunately had VERY limited knowledge of how whalers really are and it was not uncommon to find some elevated moisture readings in the foam. The only reason I used him was the Bank would not give a loan without a survey due to the boats age and he was the only one with openings for about a month.
Any ways now on my 4th year with the boat it has never been an issue.
Honestly the best way to tell if the hull has water in it and how much is to float it. If the water line is in line with specs you should be good to go (From the image attached your bottom paint seems to be with spec.) Seal the holes up and use the boat for the season. If you have time this season before splashing the boat drill some holes along your keel towards the stern as see what comes out. I only got a couple drips out of my hull in the week I had in up on blocks for repainting the hull.
As for the vacuum....I think I might have a better option...
(Warning you are about to read an untested THEORY, there is no scientific data to back this claim)
The vacuum idea is one that many people have had however, it will only work for a small area around the vacuum point. I have a theory (because I have not tested on a hull yet) that if you create a low psi (5 to maybe 10 psi at most) of air pressure inside the foam area of the hull it that work work better. Here is my thinking. When I sucked the water out of the foam around my fuel tank I removed all of the foam from the stern area of the fuel tank creating a void for water to collect. Then using a wet / dry vac I would suck teh water out. This would work great however once all of the water in the void was sucked up I would have to wait 30 minutes for it to fill back up.
So I was only able to suck the water out of the foam in the area that was close to the vacuum. Then the rest of the water still in the foam around the tank would begin to find the lowest area and begin pooling again through gravity.
So if the vacuum only is pulling the "head waters" and not the whole body of water what is you created something to push that body of water from behind. Now the fuel tank cavity would not work for this but the inside of a hull is perfect because the pressure will push against the rest of the hull thus forcing the water out of any open escape route (holes along the keel). Just a crazy thought.
As for the foam. Well many whaler dealers state with great certainty that whaler's foam will not hold water because it is a closed cell foam. Yes there are right. But ,that is only right from the time it leaves the factory. Over the many years of normal use, and especially if you live in an environment where there are freezing temps, the foam has all kinds of forces acting on it and over time those cells break open. Once open water can and will let water in and let it move about.
Bottom line is unless there are large cracks forming on your hull and there are no signs of MAJOR repairs done to the boat your boat should be structurally sound and enjoy it. Congrats again on the boat you will love it. When I fulfilled my childhood dream of getting my 22 Outrage it was one of the best days of my life. Of course like anything there are rough times but, it is the good times that make you forget back the bad.
I responded to your email to me and included a phone #. Please, feel free to call me tomorrow or anytime and I am more than happy to help talk you through any questions on your 22. Also I have some 22 Outrage hull identifier graphics and Whaler Logos for your hull if you need some.
Post some more pictures on a personal page.
Cheers,
Jeff
Edited by Jeff on 06/13/07 - 9:31 PM
1993 23' Walkaround Whaler Drive
Thanks for the reply Jeff, I am where you were for sure, nervous about a wet hull! You mentioned the water line, and that's what originally got me thinking that the hull was heavy with water. The previous owner moored the boat, and it has barnicles on the bottom 1/4 of the engine transom bracket (basically to the top edge of the bottom paint line). Other pic's I've seen of 20 and 22 footers in the water, even with little kicker engines on the back, seemed to be sitting about 2-3" higher in the water based on the bracket and the paint line.
You also mentioned cracks, did you mean inside or on the outside of the hull? I have a lot of cracks inside and was actually going to post another separate question about them. The outside of the hull appears to be in decent shape, other than the two perforations in the chine, with no major repairs that I can detect or that the previous owner (who seemed to be a very honest and straight forward guy) knew of.
I also thought of using my compressor to "lightly encourage" the excess water to exit with low psi, but my big fear would be also encouraging delamination as I have no idea what the strength of the bond is at this point. This whole wet foam issue really appears to be a one way street - gets wet, stays wet. The funny thing is I had to buy a new trailer as the previous owner kept it at a marina, and when I added the numbers based on the factory spec's, almost went with the 3700 lb trailer, now with the 4000 lb under the boat and getting the weigh in today, I feel like I'm at the upper limit of the new trailer! Though I assume and hope there's a safety margin built in there somewhere as I gotta get gas...!
So I may take a shot at getting it weighed at the local transfer station as they have scales, but your point is well taken, repair the leaks and see how it runs this summer. I'd love to take it all apart and refurbish it this winter, but a lot will depend on the feedback I get on the interior cracks as well as how it does on the water. I'm going to take some pic's tomorrow of the cracking and try to post them. Even in the shape it's in now, it's a great boat and I'm really excited about having it!
You've got a great boat. Hope you get a lot of enjoyment out of it. It's been informative looking at the various posts, especially Tom's about the various theories.
I still have a chunck of foam I removed from my boat about a month ago. It's maybe 6X6X3 inches. I cut it in half this morning, and having dried for over a month, it's still soaked inside. That's without any fiberglass on either side of it, and that's a thin piece!
As a point of reference, my old 1987 22 Outrage sat with the chines just barely under water at the transom with nobody aboard. This was a boat with a 43lb merc 200, no T-top, 1 battery in the console and captains chairs, and not much else.
I'm going to make a WAG, and assume that a 22 outrage is 7 feet wide at the waterline, and that it is 14 feet on long on average if we square it off the waqterline cross section. That means that each additional inch of draft displaces 8 cubic feet or water, or ~500 lbs. So a 22 that is 1000lbs heavy is going to sit 2" lower than one that is not.
If you are concerned, take everything out of the boat that isn't nailed down, estimate the rest as closely as you can, and then weigh the package.
Your fine, over and above the stadard configuration you have a t-top, leaning post, super console and an unknown quanity of gas. That's a lot of weight so at just under 4000 pounds, I am not suprised by the numbers. Have you dropped it in the water yet and taken a spin? Seal up all the holes you can fine and I wouldn't worry too much.
Thanks for all the replies, very much appreciated! That second picture you posted Jeff is one of the two I'd initially seen that got me thinking. It looks like you have about an inch between the bottom of the bracket and the water line, mine appears to sit much lower according to the barnicles on the bracket itself.
Very interesting calculation Plotman, would be just about right according to the numbers so far...
And Dan, your post reinforces my growing conclusion that there's not much I can do if there's water in there. I'd just like to have a fair idea of where I'm starting at. Based on where you took that chunk of foam from, and the info contained in Tom's post, what's your thinking on the mechanism of how the foam got so wet?
Two quick questions, does any one know if the factory specifications for the weight included the console and seating? (your point is well taken Kamie!) And second, is there any kind of dipstick or snake method of determining how much gas may be in the main tank as the gauge doesn't work and I'm at a loss for determining the quantity short of removing the console and deck. As always, your replies are incredibly helpful!
"Standard Configuration" for the Outrage 22' would be:
1. Bow Rail
2. Standard Console
3. Swivel Seats (Captains Chairs)
4. Under Gunwale Rod Holders
No engine, No fuel, No battery(s), No trailer.....
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