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http://hamptonroads.com/2009/12/two-f...bay-bridge

The rockfish season is just starting to heat up in the lower Chesapeake Bay. Yesterday was very nice early but started to get cool and gloomy around 2pm.

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Wow, very tragic story. With both men found floating in the water and the 28 foot BW still missing, it leads me to believe foul play was involved. Choppy seas for a 28 footer isn't enough to throw two men overboard.

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I agree Cliff. Something does not smell right with this story. A search of the area would have turned up something if there was no foul play.

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Yes very sad and many questions.

Boat found. http://www.wvec.com/news/local/Coast-...62127.html

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I bet they were both leaning over the side to bring in a fish, and a wave caused the boat to pitch and they fell in. Cold water, no easy way to get back on board, older men, no PFD or radio, and maybe boat was in gear. Very sad, but feasible. I'm always paranoid about falling in. At least they were together, and doing something they loved to do.

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TRAGIC, possibly avoidable too, PFD's, I won't go on "ANY" boat without wearing one.

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Lots of waves, swirling currents and boat traffic, including large naval ships down there. I have know folks to be rocked by waves from a boat they never see (read sub). It's very sad. It does remind me to grab my PFD from the boat. I am down in the same area next weekend for a fishing charter.

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This does sound like foal play... A 28 boat of any kind just does not go missing. They were still in the bay... How bad can it get in a 28 ft boat even with traffic. If it capsized it would still float although it may be over in it's side.

Very sad...

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They found the boat near an island. Pretty much rules out foul play. Just plain sad.

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Foul play... based on no evidence to suggest such? Some of you guys are really the suspicious type.

My take on the probable scenario... because of some reason we can only guess, one of the brothers falls into the drink. The second brother goes overboard either accidentally or on purpose trying to recover the first. No PFD's, water temperature in the 50's, and then factor in the age of the deceased boaters. Just takes one mistake to set forth such a tragedy. Even if they were good swimmers, they where probably unconscious within an hour of hitting the water.

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I live in NYC John, I am suspicious of EVERYONE!

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lol, I understand.

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Our remarks were made after the first article was published and well before the second article was published. Based on only the information in first article alone, it was easy to think that foul play made have had something to do with it.

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Very sad, PFD's and a good boarding/swim ladder of some make would have probbly changed the outcome. Just a few weeks ago 3 guys were going out the inlet here and were thrown out of the boat by a set of waves, the pilot of the boat didn't have the emergency kill lanyard hooked to him and the boat kept going and slammed into the rock jety. Remember this; Always take two minutes for safety!!

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Positive thoughts going out to the old guys.

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Fatal boating accidents are not at all uncommon. Maybe murder in our coastal waters is more common than I thought.

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If someone is stupid enough to try and buy a Whaler from a marina and told it was sold, then hook the boat up to his truck and head off on a hollywood chase scene, it would not be completely unfathomable to assume someone might have boat jacked the 28' boat. The first report stated that the boat was missing and only the men were found. I would venture to say that a 28' boat would be a easier to find in the water than two bodies, which led me to my initial assumption.

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Johnny & Harley,
This is a great example of why it is usually a bad idea to form opinions, and express them publicly, with almost no facts and a small amount of incomplete information.

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I'm not heading up the investigation, so my opinion was merely conversation, nothing more.

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hahaha too funny.

I wonder if there will be some kind of determination about what happened.

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Am I correct in saying the boat did not have a boarding ladder?

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I wouldn't have my 83 year old Dad out there even on a good day, he's fit as a fiddle but balance is a big problem for most at that age. Maybe with a young and nimble crew. It's not difficult to topple a 83 year old in a swell. It's a crying shame these things happen.

Sympathy to the families.

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Not enough information to say... I wonder if they were warring boots? When overboard they are like a anchor, I know of a person who lost there life that way. and to top it off his youngest son was holding him by the hands and could not let go to get a line.eather way he was gone. A very sad thing I haven't thought of this in years until now reading this.

His name was the old man that was what every one called him / Paul Hawkins / RIP

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I wear "Old Sneakers" tied very loosely when operating the boat, thay way if I go in the water accidentally, I can still kick them off and swim. An old Captain taught me that one, It work's !

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You'd need to strip off most of your clothes because they'll pull you down as well.

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The loss outlined in this thread is indeed tragic.


There are a lot of considerations when discussing this sort of loss and related safety issues. Going overboard can get real serious, real quick.

Water temperature is a huge factor. The water temp had to be around the mid fifties, maybe less in this particular case. With all other factors aside, the water temp alone is enough to quickly temporarily disable all but the healthiest and fittest person, even a good swimmer. Throw in a choppy sea and things go from bad to worse very quickly. All it takes is just one bad breath and a mouthful of water and self recovery can be almost impossible. One or both could have even been injured or ill going into the water.

PFDs would seem to me to have been one of the most basic safety considerations that the boaters did not use. Even so, colder water temperatures can cause unconsciousness relatively quickly. Temps in the fifties may provide some only an hour or two at best. Maybe if each where wearing a PFD, it could have provided the extra few minutes of survivability needed to be discovered by someone that could have assisted in a successful rescue.

Most clothing will actually aid in helping keep a victim afloat. Especially winter clothing which can easily trap a significant amount of air. Of course anyone with $50 worth if pennies in their pockets may have an issue. Clothing can also help stave off hypothermia significantly better than floating around in your boxers. However anyone that doesn't have experience or training in the water while clothed, will feel a sense of panic and usually quickly shed what they can if they can. Most wet clothing floats, something to think about. Most adults float pretty well too, especially the female gender. We just don't automatically float well with our nose and mouth clear of the water. Boots and shoes need to go IF you have no PFD. Keep the boots or shoes if you do have a PFD.

In the first 24 hours, we almost always find adult drowning victims floating, even with full clothing and shoes. Kids sink like a stone and will stay down the first few days. Perhaps a morbid mention but its something I have too much experience with.

Our weather gets a little more dicey this time of year and water temps are dropping. It always catches a few unprepared and some will pay the ultimate price.

I boat all year around here in Florida but I wont take my family out into open water during the colder months. Its not that we're not well prepared, it just that even well prepared, modestly cold water temperatures can be a quick death warrant when unexpected circumstances fall into place providing little time for rescue.

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Now I feel I have to clarify what I said.



These are boots that slip over your shoes or shocks in my case. Mine were two sizes to big so they could be kicked off if I had to, after all it not like you are running a race in them. The man I was talking about had boots and helly hansen slickers on.
The slickers cling to the boots and make them hard to kick off when under water.

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That has not been my experience.

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Clothing can be used to create floating devices. They are great, but it works.

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Throw on a couple extra pairs of jeans and you won't need a PFD. lol Don't try this in water over your head.

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The lead lined xray technicians apron probably isn't the most appropriate boating wear.

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Cold water is especially dangerous because loss of body heat occurs 25 times faster in cold water than in cold air. How quickly you become hypothermic depends on many factors, including your personality and behavior, environmental factors, how you are dressed, your age, and physical condition.

If used properly, clothing could also be used as flotation devices too. Ideally if one is in cold water they should keep all their clothes on as it provides a layer of insulation, however slight.

With water temperatures ranging between 50° – 60°, the expected time before exhaustion or unconsciousness is typically 1 – 2 hours with an expected time of survival of about 1 – 6 hours.

Everyone reacts differently to the cold, even under the same conditions. Generally, children lose body heat more quickly than adults. Thin people lose body heat faster than overweight people.

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yea, their are so many factor's here, and we don't really know the conditions, if you have waves crashing down on you even a PFD won't help, even with 60*F (water temp.) "Hypothermia" is a very real possibility.

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Almost forgot, the old guys must have been drunk because with all of your experience, 100% of boating accidents involve drunks.

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Ok Guys Play Nice Or We Might Find A Lock On the Gate At The Sand Box...

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How inappropriate. Now your just simply making things up as I've never posted such information.

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You guys turned a post about a tragic event into a joking matter. We could have used this post as a teaching tool instead of an arguement between members. Shameful.

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Ah Cliff, half of the thread was spent debunking your inappropriate and ill-informed assertion foul flay was involved. Yes, one thing you taught us was NOT to express opinions without any facts. That is indeed a good lesson learned (I hope).

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Josey, I don't think your kind of attitude is warranted. it was merely an opinion, much like the one you are posting. Cliff, like myself, are entitled to our opinions and have been before you joined this site. I think this thread should be closed before somebody really speaks their mind.

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Kevin, I'm sorry you seem to be offended by my comments. If you are suggesting jumping to knee-jerk conclusions publicly with little or no supportive information on this or any other matter is appropriate, then I think you are in the minority. You are certainly free to make such assertions, but as I suggested before, they rarely predict an accurate accounting of any event. I expressed NO opinion on this event because I have nothing but very small amount of information regarding this tragic event to base any opinion on. I did express an opinion on knee-jerk, ill-informed conclusions noted above. Are you suggesting such conclusions are a good practice? Ignorance is indeed expensive.

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Josey, who are you to trample on the constitutional rights of anyone? Unless you have anything constructive to say, say nothing. Your word are nothing more than antagonistic. It is better to be thought an idiot than open your mouth and remove all doubt.

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Kevin, I think in this case Josey is the one who jumped to conclusions as he has obviously not read, or at least understood what was written in the previous posts.

As said before, our statements were pure speculation and were made prior to the release of the second article announcing they found the victims Whaler.

I think that there's a possibility that someone pissed in Joseys wheaties this morning and he needs to take it out on someone. If that's the case, he needs to go over to another site where post bashing in encouraged.

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Cliff, josey's comments are derogatory in nature and serve no purpose but to foster animosity.

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You guys continue through life speculating and fostering conspiracy theories. As I clearly stated, you have every right to do so. Good luck with that. Perhaps the Somali Pirates have expanded their attack waters 10,000 miles to the east and up the Chesapeake. Sheesh!

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You guys win...UNCLE!

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You still don't get it, this is not a contest. 42 posts and almost half of them have been of a negative nature. This has been a peaceful website prior to your arrival and will be again when you leave.

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And I do apologize to the rest for the tone this thread has taken and any part my comments played in escalating others comments.

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I am buying an inflatable PFD if I do anymore Striper fishing this season. I think if you don't have to swim to stay afloat and can remain still, you'll buy some precious time.

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PDF's are required now in NY. Next year will be my first year of wearing them since I was a kid. I'm sure I'll get used to it and eventually will feel uncomfortable without one. The way it should be imo

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Harley, you need to brush up on your research. Point to one of my posts outside of this thread (aside from one lamenting about Binkies antics) that was not topical and on point? Your right, this is not a contest, so please let is go. I regret entering this debate with you.

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Aren't PFD's required by the Coast Guard or by the state in all boats?

Seems like just saying "PFD" is kind of ambiguous since there are several classifications. I'm thinking you guys are talking about Type I, which will roll an unconscious victim face up? Those are the bulky ones that everyone hates to wear so they spend most trips stowed under the console or in the anchor locker or the cooler. (I'm guilty of this for sure.)

Or maybe Type V, which is the survival suit style that doesn't qualify as a floatation device unless you're wearing it?

Either way, a shame for those folks to fall out and die. A damned shame.

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I thought that was only for commercial fisherman?

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Ted,
Each state has their own local regulations. Many only require children under a specified age to don a PFD.

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As of November 1, 2009, all boaters regardless of age on any vessel under 21' including kayaks, and canoes must wear Coast Guard-approved personal flotation devices (PFDs) while on New York’s coastal waters, lakes, rivers and other waterways.

New York’s cold weather PFD rule will remain in effect through May 1. Violators face fines ranging from $25 to $100.

Norm

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Here's the scoop on NY PFD law -
http://nysparks.state.ny.us/recreatio...ewYork.pdf

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Now thats irony.