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It seems most waters in Washington State and California are outlawing 2 strokes and these are the waters I plan on boating in including ocean bays as in Puget Sound and the California coastline.

All the motors I am looking at (new) are 4 strokes and heavier than 2 strokes and I don't want to purchase a new motor and be limited to where I can go in my 13' Sport.

Any input would be appreciated.

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I am unaware of ANY waters in Washington State that have outlawed two stroke motors and can think of only a handful of small lakes in California that have. Not even pristine Lake Tahoe has outlawed two stroke outboards.

Can you clarify what you are referring to?

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After having a number of two smokers I personally would not go back to them for a number of reasons.

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You are referring to the old technology 2 Strokes, but the new motors like the ETEC are cleaner burning than some of the older 4 Strokes. There are a lot of pros and cons on both sides, so do your homework before closing the door on something besides a 4 Stroke. There are a lot more parts and things to go wrong on a 4 Stroke vs a 2 stroke, not to mention the weight difference. Ffrom what I have been told, maintainace on a 4 stroke is more costly than a 2 Stroke, but I have no personal experience about that. I do know that I am only supsosed to take my ETEC in every 3 years for service.

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Engines are rated by California Air Resources Board (CARB) rating... CARB 3 being the best so far.
This rating is for both 2 strokes and 4 strokes.

Any engine that meets the local requirements for a body of water is allowed to be used. Example: if a lake requires engines to be CARB 3 rated, then your engine must be CARB 3 rated to use it on that lake.
This has Nothing to do whether it is 2 stroke or 4 stroke.

I don't know of any lake in California that specifically BAN 2 stroke engines.
They do ban dirty engines whether they are 2 stroke or 4 stroke.
Several 4 stroke engines do NOT meet the CARB 3 rating for California. Thereby these 4 stroke engines could NOT be used on that body of water.
However, there are several 2 stroke engines that DO meet the CARB 3 rating and are allowed to be used on any lake or body of water that has the CARB 3 restraint.

Just because a motor is a 4 stroke does NOT mean it is a cleaner engine than the new 2 strokes.

I would suggest you look at some of the new CARB 3 rated 2 strokes before making a purchase.
Take a look at this list and compare the CARB 3 rating, 2 stroke or 4 stroke, and the engine weight.
http://www.whalercentral.com/articles...icle_id=78

I wouldn't compare your old 2 stroke to any of the new 2 strokes.
Your old 2 stroke isn't even in the same category with the newer 2 strokes, other than the fact that all 2 strokes have many less moving parts than any 4 stroke could ever have.
Most all 2 strokes will have a better hole shot than the same hp 4 stroke. Just the way it is.

The new strokes are just as clean if not cleaner, just about as quiet (some are quieter), and 2 strokes don't require any oil changes or as many regular tune-ups like their 4 stroke counterparts.
Just some things to think about.

Yes, I live in California and I would not buy a 4 stroke.
I even plan on buying a 2 stroke 9.9 kicker when it is released from BRP as long as it is CARB 3 rated.

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I have had older two smokers that is correct (Johonson70 Mercury1000 and small verities of kickers) Now I have a Four Stroke, and I stand by what I said I will Never go Back to those two Strokes... Ever!... And you can't make me. I'm sorry that was a attempt at some humor ok.

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I see ioptfm got in there while I was composing my post.

You didn't mention you already bought a 4 stroke.
I don't think anyone is trying to convince you to buy anything, just was suggesting to take a look at all the options. This point is moot now.

There might be people that would like to know the reasoning why you said this:


I would never go back to the old 2 strokes either. Especially because I live in California like you do. However, I won't buy a 4 stroke for many reasons either.

I'll take a guess and say you didn't buy an old 4 stroke... Correct?
Well, I'm not going to buy an old 2 stroke either. I going to buy a new 2 stroke.

The old Ford, Chevy, Dodge debate. Or, gas engines versus diesel engines.
My dogs better than your dog debate... :D

No one is right or wrong here.
Whatever Floats Your Boat is the important thing.
As long as you are happy with your purchase and the engine performs like you want.
No one can argue with that.

By the way, you didn't mention what 4 stroke you purchased for use in California.
Is it CARB 3 rated?
I just looked at your personal page... A Suzuki some hp ?....
Very nice motor.....

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Well then it looks like I've been misinformed and will go about doing my homework. Joe , thanks for the valuable input. I want to purchase a NEW motor and am leaning for 40hp but the weight of these new motors is a factor. Since I am restoring my 82' 13 sport I have the option of moving seating forward. My local outboard dealer which I have bought smaller motors and have had repairs done by him on other motors(all Hondas) is an Evinrude and Honda dealer and will give good pricing for either I feel ,and am a believer in supporting local merchants. Yamaha has a 40hp with good weight but is not 3carb rated.So the education goes on. Maybe I should consider new 30hp 2stroke considering weight and expense. You can PM me if you like. Thanks

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ioptfm wrote:


Now that's a good point! I just looked at the Bombardier E-Tec [50] and I found the weight to be 240/250 lbs. and the Suzuki DF40/50 four stroke to be 231/238 (short/long)

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pirate,

Glad the information here helps. It is always good to try and get the facts so we can all make a better decision.
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guts,
I think you need to read the chart a little closer as you apparently misread some of the information. Max rating for a 13' Whaler with remote steering is 40 hp so that is what I will discuss here. Tiller model hp is only 25 for the 13' so we are discussing the remote start models.

FACT:
1. Evinrude E-Tec 40 hp, Long Shaft (20"), Electric, White = 240 pounds
(the blue, electric version weighs in at 232 pounds)
There is NO short shaft in either model.

2. Suzuki DF40, Long Shaft (20"), Electric, = 243 pounds
Again, NO short shaft.
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Everyone,

Most smaller outboards are NO longer available in the short shaft (15") model.

From this chart;
http://www.whalercentral.com/articles...icle_id=78
the lightest CARB 3 rated, 40 hp motor is the Yamaha 4 stroke 40 hp at 214 pounds.

For all of these smaller engines, the weight difference between the 40 hp models are not really that significant.
If you want a lighter engine, then you will need to drop down to a 30 hp model.

So, for these 40 hp models, it is just a matter of personal choice if you want to buy either a CARB 3 rated 2 stroke or a CARB 3 rated 4 stroke.

Advantages of 2 stroke:
Better hole shot
No oil changes ever
3 years before service (for the E-Tec anyway)
Fewer moving parts to wear out or break as opposed to any 4 stroke

Advantages of 4 stroke:
I am sitting here trying to think of any advantages. I can't think of any at this time.
Maybe others here with 4 strokes can tell us the advantages there are over the E-Tec or other CARB 3 rated 2 strokes.

Just for the record, I am not trying to sell anyone on any model. Just hopefully giving factual information so all of us can make our own intelligent decisions.

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Don't forget "Part's & Service", what place is the closest to home, and are they open Sun. ?

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Joe as for the info I posted on the Suzuki I got it here, I did assume that the "L" was long and the "s" was short. as far as the 40/50 Suzuki it the same engine just like the Df60/Df70.
The weight I was looking at was for Remote- control and not Tiller Handle sorry.
I too am not trying to sell any one but it is my personal preference after having twos then going to the injected fours.

https://secure.suzuki.com/marine/_m/brochures/df50-40.pdf

Joe could you tell me what this is in your post, I'm unclear what it is.[("either a CARB 3 rated 2 stroke or a CARB 3 rated 4 stroke.")] is this a carburetor

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Guts,

The CARB stands for "California Air Resources Board".
California uses standards that this resource board sets for clean burning motors. It has to do with emissions just like autos basically and there smog rating so to speak.

As you can see from the chart, the engines with a check mark are CARB 3 rated.
CARB 3 rating is the cleanest rating for emissions so far. I'm sure sometime in the future they will come up with a CARB 4 rating which will have less emissions.

As far as I know, there are no CARB 3 rated engines that use carburetors. All clean engines use some type of electronic fuel injection or direct injection that I am aware of. I don't think you can even buy a new automobile with carburetors. I could be wrong.
UPDATE: I see that the Honda 25/30 is using carburetors.

Some 2 strokes and 4 strokes are only CARB 2 rated meaning they put out more emissions than a CARB 3 rated motor.

Many states are looking at California and some are beginning to use the CARB rating for their bodies of waters.
Some lakes in California only allow CARB 3 rated motors.

California is the only state I know of at this time that are not allowed to sell any outboard motors that are not at least CARB 2 rated. This means we cannot buy any new motor, either 2 stroke or 4 stroke, that is not at least CARB 2 rated. We can't go down and buy any new 2 stroke like Yamaha. Yamaha 2 strokes cannot be sold new in California.. Period..

Many people like the Suzuki 70 hp 4 stroke for the power of the 17' Whalers.
Just a matter of preference and maybe because they have a Suzuki dealer close by.

Other people that also want a clean engine but in a 2 stroke version, might choose the E-Tec 90

Here are the specs to compare for 16'/17' engine choices:
http://www.whalercentral.com/articles...ticle_id=5

Just a comparison to your DF70.
DF70 weighs in at 359 pounds

E-Tec 90 weighs in at 320 pounds

So, both engines are CARB 3 rated which has the cleanest emissions possible. Both these motors can be used in California on any of the bodies of water that I know of.
The E-Tec weighs 39 pounds less. That's not a lot of weight but then the E-Tec motor has 20 more HP than the DF70.
I haven't compared the real prices of these motors so that would have to be considered by the individual. What they want to spend.

DF70 = $ ?
E-Tec 90 = $ ?

Just remember when comparing the prices of these 2 engines that the E-Tec has 20 more HP....
I would like to hear from people that have real street prices of these motors and not suggested retail.

Lots of variables for all of the different models of Whalers and the different motor choices.
Example:
I personally wouldn't choose the E-Tec 75 (on a 16'/17' Whaler) because it weighs the same as the E-Tec 90... Therefore I would choose the E-Tec 90.
However, there are people that want to save some money and they would choose the E-Tec 75...
Just a matter of what the individual decides what is right for them.

The bottom line for the CARB rating.
I think all of us want to keep the environment as clean as possible. So most of us are going to buy the cleanest engine that fits our pocket book and needs.
In California we don't have any choice but to buy clean new engines as we can't buy any new "dirty" engines as they cannot be sold new in California.
I tried buying a 2 stroke out of state a few years ago and the dealer told me they could not sell those 2 strokes to Californians.
I now realize that I would rather have a clean engine anyway. At this time, I would not buy a CARB 2 rated engine in California. I would only buy CARB 3 rated.

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Are CARB 3 rated motors identified on the housing in some way? If not, how do authorities know if hve one? I have a 2001 Mercury 2 Stroke 40 HP on my 13. When did the CARB 3 motors first appear on the market?

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burtim,

California started this several years ago. About 2002 but not positive.

Many engines have stickers on them if they have a CARB rating.
If they don't have a CARB rating, then of course they wouldn't have a sticker.
if your engine doesn't have a sticker, go to the website of your engine manufacturer and see what rating they state for your particular model, if any...

Here are the stickers that I am aware of.

1. CARB 1 rating (Low Emission) (1 Star) 2001
[img]http://www.whalercentral.com/images/carb1_rating.gif[/img]

2. CARB 2 rating (Very Low Emission) (2 Star) 2004
[img]http://www.whalercentral.com/images/carb2_rating.jpg[/img]

3. CARB 3 rating (Ultra Low Emission) (3 Star) 2008
[img]http://www.whalercentral.com/images/carb3_rating.jpg[/img]

Because I live in California, I no longer have any use for the CARB 2 rating even though it is available.
I want the cleanest engine available now and for the future if I am spending my hard earned cash.

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Here is the most recent article I can find on the Lake Tahoe region for outboard motor use.
Below is a quote from this California Government page:
http://www.dbw.ca.gov/Pubs/Lake_Tahoe...eTahoe.pdf









Here is an article directly from Mercury which shows which Mercury engines can or cannot be sold in California as of 2008.
http://www.mercurymarine.com/servicea...s/carb.php

Some of the Mercury Optimax 2 stroke line are CARB 3 rated.
All of the E-Tec 2 stroke engines are CARB 3 rated.
Most all of the 4 strokes are CARB 3 rated but not all of them.

Hope this helps clarify what engines can and can't be used in many bodies of water in California especially the Lake Tahoe region.

I still haven't heard from the owners of 4 strokes what advantages there are over the newer 2 strokes. Anyone?
I asked this question in a post above and gave some advantages of the new 2 strokes over the 4 strokes. Anyone add anything else?

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Joe thank you for the explanation of the "CARB rating'. I did learn something new.. One thing do not under stand is why the E-Tec two are so heavy. They do not have as many parts as the four stroke, it just doesn't make sense to me. Just for the record I do stand corrected as the Four Stroke Is Slightly Heaver. I'm just waiting for California residents to be required to have Catalytic Converter on these four strokes.
Here are some of the reasons I like the four stroke.
When I bought my four stroke I could have bought any of the major brands, they have dealers for all of them in Sa Diego. What made my decision was the Suzuki four stroke was the Only outboard that offered injection. I looked at two stroke but all of them had carburetors, the year was 2000. My likes are/ when tied up at the dock the only thing you here is the water coming out of the engine from the tattle tale. I had others ask shouldn't you start the engine before you push off, they can't believe it is that quite. The power band wow! I judge this in a kelp bed the two stroke that I have seen bog down when surrounded with kelp. The four I have seems to have the power to cop and power thru it with a periodic backing down to clear the intake. On the DF70 I'm swinging a 14" 19P cupped SS prop. top speed is 36 mph/on gps, loaded. I don't know that size the new E-tecs. are swing. Great hole shots, and performs very well throughout the power band. Mileage is extremely good, I couldn't be happier with this four stroke.

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Guts,

Yes, in 2000 there weren't many clean 2 strokes around. Now there are.

If you look at all the weight charts we have in the articles section under "Current Engine Choices", you will see that ALL 4 strokes are heavier than the same size 2 stroke except for the smaller motors.

This is mainly due to the fact that many of the 40, 50, and 60 hp motors all use the same block meaning the 40 hp might weigh the same as the 60 hp models.

As noted above, the E-Tec 90 hp is 29 pounds lighter than your 70 hp 4 stroke.
That is a lot of difference in weight as the 90 has 20 more hp and still is lighter than the 70 hp 4 stroke.

In todays world, the new 2 strokes run just as clean and just as quiet as the 4 strokes and usually are much lighter than the 4 strokes. (there are slight variables in all of these engines as far as how quiet, how fuel efficient, etc.).
Bottom line, we all have the choice now of whether we want a 2 stroke or 4 stroke, which most all are about the same, if they are CARB 3 rated.

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At the 40 HP level, the topic of this discussion, there are only 2 clean 2-strokes, the Tohatsu and Evinrude. All the other engine brands are 4-stroke, which pretty much control the 40-60 HP market, with well over 90% and maybe more marketshare, since the Evinrudes are recent newcomers and not huge sellers by any measure.

The recent test by Bass and Walleye Boat magazine tested all of the 50's, basically the same family of engines as the 40's, and taking the Mercury classic 2-stroke 50 out of the equation (which took 1st place), Mercury and Suzuki 4-strokes were the top performers. The E-tec was 2nd last on the rating. See this contentious article in CW (as they all are!), but the facts of the testing are still reported, and you decide:
http://continuouswave.com/ubb/Forum4/...06458.html

The weights on ALL of these engines are so close as to be a non-factor.

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I deleted a comment that had absolutely nothing to do with Outboard motors.

If a person can't tell everyone here what advantages they see for using a 4 stroke motor as compared to a new 2 stroke motor, then please, your comments are not relevant to this thread.

I realize that some of you may feel threatened by this thread. But some people have already pointed out the advantages of the new 2 strokes over the 4 strokes.

Please enlighten the rest of us and tell us the advantages of the 4 stroke motors over the new 2 stroke motors.
I don't think that this is that tough of a question nor should it be threatening to anyone.
No one is allowed to attack either platform here. Both are good motors.

We just want to hear the advantages of one over the other.
Thank You...

So far, no one has pointed out any advantages for the 4 stroke.

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Joe - your message sneaked in on me, but the article I referenced may give some of those reasons you are looking for, from actual testing as opposed to plain brand loyalty. And this from an old 2-stroke fan like me. I own 7 of them!!

It would also be interesting to know why Boston Whaler has abandoned Mercury 2-stroke Optimax engines completely, only offering 4-strokes.

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Interesting article Larry but then again, it is only for one HP motor, the 50...

For the sake of this thread, I am looking for advantages of one platform over the other.
I have already listed some.
Other minor differences or advantages like:
How quiet?
How much smoke?
is nit picking and that is not what I am looking for.
You can say for example, that Honda has less smoke than any other outboard motor on the market but this wouldn't be true. I am looking at the entire lineup across the board. 2 strokes and 4 strokes and all CARB 3 rated.

I was always a Chevy truck man. I recently bought a Ford truck.
Both are good trucks. I can list advantages of both.
But this is not a truck website.

All I am looking for is what advantage is there for the 4 stroke over the new 2 strokes?
Again, both are CARB 3 rated in this discussion.
All are quiet.
All are virtually smokeless, etc...

What valid advantages can anyone here put on the list for either platform?
I have already given several advantages of the new 2 strokes. I can think of another to add to the list but seems pointless if no one can give me any advantages of a 4 stroke over a 2 stroke.

It really can't be that hard if there are any advantages to the 4 strokes... Can it?

I'm sure all of us could list the advantages of long pants over bermuda shorts or visa versa.
Just about everything has some kind of advantage or disadvantage over something else in its class.
Why is it so hard here for someone to list an advantage of a 4 stroke over a new 2 stroke?
It is not necessary to defend you motor here. Just list an advantage.

For those of you just starting to read this, please go back and start from the beginning so you get the whole story.
No one is putting down one platform or the other. I am honestly looking for the valid advantages of one platform or the other.

Still no points for the 4 strokes yet...

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Joe, why so fired up? I'm not sure why you are so set on discrediting the value of 4 stroke technology, but those are some pretty enthusiastic posts. If you are looking for someone to give you the benefits of one technology over another, you should ask an engineer. My background is in biology, so I can't really debate this issue. All that I know is that I have been very pleased with my Honda. If I bought a Etec, I'm sure I would be equally as pleased. Evinrude, Yamaha, Honda, Mercury, Suzuki are all great choices. I could understand your position if there was a manufacturer that was selling an inferior product, but does not seem to be the case. Can't we all just get along? Ha.

You would like one advantage. OK, I don't have to buy 2 stroke oil. Oh, but I have to change my oil. OK. I don't have to find a place for an oil reservoir. How about that.

By the way, Joe, I really like your new avatar. Lookin' good.

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Is that look Magnum or Blue Steel? I like the squint. As a former professional golfer, I know there are only three sure ways to tell a hustler...Squinty eyes, a dark tan, and a 1 iron. I assume you don't have a 1 iron so I think we are safe.

Ok now back on topic...

-John

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womms,

That's exactly what I was looking for.
Yes, last night I finally thought of the same thing as you did.

Advantages of a 4 stroke.
1. Don't have to find a place for an oil reservoir in the larger series motors above 90 hp.
2. Don't have to deal with 2 stroke oil.

I don't think anyone here so far is knocking one platform or the other. (not allowed)
I don't think anyone reading this entire thread can say I am discrediting the 4 strokes or the 2 strokes.

There are advantages to everything we use.
I can think of advantages of using boxer shorts over jockey shorts and visa versa...

After we settled the original poster questions, all I was looking for were some valid advantages of the new 2 stroke motors and also the valid advantages of the 4 stroke motors.
It seemed quite simple to me and nothing for anyone to get worked up about.
It seems there should be more advantages to either platform.
Easier to change props or water pump or something.

womms and jguigley,
I took off my sunglasses in my new avatar photo and squinted.
Tomorrow I am going out and buying a 1 iron.... B)
Hey, what are the advantages of a 1 iron?

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Ahhh. I see now. I thought we were getting into a Mac vs. PC conversation, but in reality you were just looking for legitimate advantages.

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womms,
Now we got it....

Finnegan,
Great question.


I can only take a guess here until Boston Whaler possibly releases any info on the subject.
Maybe it is due to some of the Optimax 2 stroke engines not being allowed to be sold in California.
Boston Whaler obviously wouldn't even send a boat and a motor to California if the engine/boat combination could not be sold here.
I put a link in a post above on which Mercury engines were not allowed to be sold in California.
This comes directly from Mercury.
http://www.mercurymarine.com/servicea...s/carb.php

I realize California is only one state but many states are looking at using cleaner engines in their waterways. Just like the automobile is looking at Electric, Hydrogen, and Solar power among other resources to propel our cars of the future.

As it stands right now, the cleanest outboards being sold are CARB 3 rated.
This is for both 4 strokes and 2 strokes.
Who knows what tomorrow will bring to the outboard motors.

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There are none. This one is undisputed.

-John

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"Even God can't hit a one iron!"

Mike

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Joe,

I ended up with a 150 Yami four stroke for my 19. I believe fuel economy is a definite advantage. In relation to my old 2 stroke engine I get the same gas mileage out of my 150hp 4strk as my 90hp 2strk. I do not have collected data to prove this but notice it every time I need to fill her up.

Another advantage of the 4 stroke is if you fish with a fat ass buddy the extra 50 lbs they weigh help level out the load if your buddy sits up front. :D lol

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Blue_Northern,

There is absolutely no question about the fact that the 4 strokes and the newer CARB 3 rated 2 strokes get better fuel economy than the older 2 strokes.

Basically the older 2 strokes are done, especially in California.

We are discussing the newer technology of the newer 2 strokes along with the CARB 3 rating of all outboards.

Many of you obviously don't live in California and at this time aren't forced to buy clean engines. However, here is one of my concerns for all the owners of outboards.

For example:
You live in Colorado. There are no restrictions on any lakes at this time. You go out and buy a brand new older technology 2 stroke. 3 months later your state puts a restriction on the lake that you normally go boating in. They now no longer allow you to boat in that lake without a cleaner engine like a CARB 2 or CARB 3 rated engine. What do you do now?
It seems that you have just bought a new engine for your boat that now is an anchor as you can't use it on the lake you frequent most.

As most of you are now aware from this post, that California has restrictions for outboards on many lakes. This could happen in your area.

So, what I am saying to protect yourself from this happening, buy a clean engine. Either a clean CARB 3 rated 2 stroke or a CARB 3 rated 4 stroke.
The reason I say CARB 3 rated, is some day here in California, some of these lakes may just up the anti.... They may decide to not let anything less on their lakes except for CARB 3 rated outboard motors.
If I go out now and buy a CARB 2 rated 4 stroke or 2 stroke now and they change the rules, I would be in the same position as my example above.
I don't want to put myself in that position. Do you?

Some states may never have to think about this. However, I think all states have some kind of SMOG (emission laws) for all of the automobiles. Some states may have grandfather clauses where you can still use your old and stinky automobile on the road up to a point.
These California lake laws do NOT have any grandfather clauses. Just because my grandfather may have boated there for 60 years with his old stinky 2 stroke, that is the end. No more. Clean motors only can be used.

Just trying to look at the big picture for everyone, especially those of us in California, that already have many rules and restrictions in use at many of our lakes.

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This is one of the best and most active threads that I've seen in a long time and is very informative. It almost looks like it all boils down to preference when you compare the new 4 strokes vs the new 2 strokes.

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Laws are an interesting thing. They creep up on you. Twenty years ago I would never have believed someone if they said that my home state would ban smoking in bars. When someone goes out to have a drink and socialize with friends, they can no longer do it with a cigarette in hand. I don't smoke, and I don't try to change people when they choose to. You can argue politics and such, but as time goes on, more restrictions on our ability to do the things we may be used to doing now come into play. Joe is right, we just have to buy the cleanest power available if we want the freedom to boat anywhere. This "green" monster is growing and we will be part of it no matter what we might want as individuals. They say it's for our own good, right?