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I'm in the process of buying a 1983 22' Outrage and have been reading about water in the hull. This boat has 2 holes, both on the starboard side of the spray rail, and they look more like rot at this point (I haven't had a chance to do any exploratory). So I'm guessing there was a puncture at some point and maybe there is wood for the spray rail base that eventually rotted? From looking at pictures on this site, and comparing them to the boat I'm buying, mine clearly sits about 3" lower in the water at the transom (could be rigging, not sure how the previous owner had it set up). Given that it has 2 visible holes in the bottom, I'm pretty sure there's water inside. From reading the posts here it seems the best I can do is make sure everything's sealed up tight. I was toying with the idea of using a vac pump to try and get some water out, but it seems what I'd be able to get out may only be a fraction of what's in the foam? I'm wondering why Whaler would use a foam that's water permeable (maybe everything is at some point?), and does this affect the "unsinkability" of the hull in any way? Given current gas prices, I don't want to be pushing around a lot of extra water weight if I can help it! Thanks.

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Have u figured out the water in hull question yet? What engine do u have? I'm curious about this isssue as well.

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Vac pump sounds interesting. Let us know how that goes. How big are the holes?

Regarding whether soaked foam will alter the "unsinkability," the answer is a qualified yes. If you have 200 lbs of water in the foam, it's like having 200 extra pounds of gear onboard. I think I read that a Montauk has 2000 lbs of swamped bouyancy. That is, if the boat is swamped, it would take 2000 lbs to sink her, due to the bouyancy of the foam. Using that model, the water would reduce her "unsinkability" by ten percent. As you pointed out, the extra weight will also cause her to ride lower in the water, and affect gas mileage.

I'm sure others will jump in here, hopefully with accurate figures. The oft-repeated suggestion of weighing the boat is a good one, but accurate figures of what each model should weigh if dry, and what equipment is included in the weight total, is hard to come by.

My '69 16foot7inch hull definitely had water intrusion. I did a lot to get it out, and was only partially successful. I still have test / drain holes in the bottom near the keel, but have sealed up abovedecks. Getting ready to flip her over and finish the bottom. In the end, I'm going to seal it all up and enjoy the boat the rest of the summer, and then drill again for winter storage. I have the feeling that many used boats out there have water in them. Holes get patched up and covered with bottom paint, drain tubes go out and are replaced, etc. But they still hang in there. Whalers are quality, long-lived boats, and the ones that are cared for, just like anything else, will be that much the better throughout their useful lives. See my personal page, below, for more on the battle.

Enjoy your new boat, and hang around... the folks around here are first class, and helpful as all get out!

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Thanks for the reply Dan. The holes, interestingly enough, are only on the vertical section of the starboard spray rail, which is only what, an inch high or so? One hole is at the very back end of the spray rail, and the other is about in the middle, both about 3" give or take. Makes me think something (maybe a trailer) at some point perforated it and over time it just rotted away.

Your point about boats that are cared for is well taken, and I'm not sure this one was unfortunately. When I first saw it my gut feeling was to pass on it, but as I sat, could see the potential. It's got spider web cracks at the base of the rail mounts, cracks in the corners where the transom meets the splash well, and a crack at the top of the transom under the motor. Nothing huge but indicators of some stress for sure. The bad part is the previous owner just moored it for the summer in salt water in front of his house, used a boat yard to get it in and out, and was completely unaware of the holes in the bottom. So it had a chance for a good long soak each season I'm guessing. Figure I'll get it leak proof and sea worthy, run it this summer, then decide if I want to dive in and do a decent restore. When I was a kid, I used to have a 13' Whaler (one of the guys who used to work at the old factory a few miles north of here said it was one of the first 10 ever made), and have always wanted a 22' Outrage. Love the way they look, especially the well cared for ones...

So I'll dive in later in the week and see what I can uncover underneath and go from there. In any case, it should be an adventure... And I already get the feeling that this is a great site with some excellent people, VERY glad I found it! Thanks again for your input, Dave

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I have done extensive research and investigation of wet Whalers. There is a great deal of information I have reported elsewhere so I will not reiterate it all here but let me hit some of the high points:

Boston Whaler does not, nor has it ever, used anything but closed cell polyurethane foam in the hulls of their boats. Close cell polyurethane foam does not absorb water like a sponge. It is not permeable except under extraordinary circumstances such as a puncture in the hull that allows water to be hydrostatically forced into the foam core as well as separating the fiberglass skin form the foam core (delamination.)

It is also speculated that a freeze/thaw cycle can break down the cell walls of the foam and allow water to be drawn to adjacent cells via capillary action. A third theory suggests that water can be driven through the foam be means of vapor drive where the water is turned to vapor by heat and the water vapor can move through the foam and then condense back into water.

Once a foam core is wet, there is no removing the water completely. A great deal of time can allow some or perhaps most water to be removed but no weekend solution is going to anything but allow a little water to drip out.

I have personally tried using a suction pump on a VERY wet Whaler hull and the results were completely disappointing. Over the course of several days I was only able to remove about two quarts of water from a 13 foot hull that held (by my estimate) 80 gallons of water.

Weighing a Whaler hull is the only really good way to determine if a hull has SIGNIFICANT water in it. There is no way to quantify small amounts of water in a foam core. It is NOT difficult to determine what a given Whaler hull should weigh nor is it difficult to determine what is included in a specified hull's weight; all standard equipment is included, all optional and dealer installed equipment and fuel is not.

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I think the idea of drilling a few holes in the low points before winter storage is a good one. Storing the boat somewhere that is warm and dry probably wouldn't hurt either.
But for now, I'm goin fishin. :D

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Thanks for the replies Tom and Arthur. I'm not sure how I'd go about weighing the hull, so I may just drill a few exploratory holes to see if that verifies water, then seal everything up. At that point I'll dunk it and see how it sits in the water, planes, and runs and just live with it as it seems there's no effective means of dealing, short of major surgery if there is water in the hull/foam. Dave

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I heard one good thing about salt water but I'm not sure how true it is.
Someone said when you get salt water in your hull, it won't rot like freshwater will.
Makes sense. Salt cured?

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Dave,
getting the weight of the boat isn't as hard as you think. Check for truck stops near you that have certified scales or my new free favorite, any industrial place that loads trucks for transit. In my case, the local lumber mill has a truck scale across the road from their building and it transmits to an LED display on the store.

Take stock of all the stuff you have on the boat and leave at home any junk, anchor, PDFs, coolers that sort of stuff. You want the boat as stock as possible, as stripped as possible, console, seats, engine, rigging and not much else. If your going to a certified scale CAT has great instructions on their web site, basically drive onto the scale and position the steer (front), drive (rear) and trailer axles over the scales and tell the attendant your a private vehicle. Once you get the weight, go drop your trailer and weight your car/truck by driving over the scale again. Tell the operator private vehicle; reweigh and at CAT scale the second weight is only a dollar, pay for your weights. If you have the opportunity, go drop the boat in the water and, leaving it with a friend you trust and go weigh the truck/trailer empty which will give you the exact weight of the boat; First weight - last weight = boat weight. If you have to drive a lot, make sure you fill up the truck gas tank or you will need to estimate gallons or gas. Also before you start, make sure the boat tank is full so you can estimate the weight of the boat minus fuel, engine, rigging. To estimate how much your over the published weight, estimate engine and rigging weight, plus anything like stern seats that were not on the standard configuration. Subtract all that plus the weight of the gas (at 6 pounds per gallon) and compare to the published weight. I estimate rigging, plus oil, plus electrical wires, control cables to be around 100 pounds, not sure if I am high or low with that guess.

With all three sets of weights you can
1. Calculate boat weight vs published weight to check for water
2. Calculate trailer tongue weight for safe trailering
3. Calculate how far to move your trailer axle or shift the boat if your trailer tongue weight is too light or to heavy to achieve safe trailering.
4. Make sure you are within published limits of your tow vehicle.
For # 2 to 4 on the list, make sure you add back in to the weights any items you left off, such as pdfs, anchor, ect if you normally carry that in the boat. All or most of those can be weighted on a standard bathroom scale.

good luck.

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Thanks for the reply Kamie. I picked up the boat earlier today at the boat yard after getting the new trailer. They had to lift it off of the jacks and onto the trailer with the cradle hoist, so I asked the guy if the scale on that was accurate, and he thought so. Granted, I didn't have time to remove the batteries and spare gas tanks, 2 bumpers, the electronics, a few life jackets, and some line, but the guy said the total rig weighed in at just under 4000 lb. Keep in mind it has a 235 Hp Johnson (1986) and what I'd call a medium duty aluminum bimini set up. The two plastic gas tanks didn't have much in them 5-7 gallons at the most, and the previous owner didn't use the internal tank and didn't think there was much left in there, but didn't know exactly, so that's a bit of a variable. Given all that, it seems like there's the potential for there to be a couple hundred pounds of water in there anyway, would you agree?

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I don't know exactly what's on the boat, do you have the standard or super console for one? It's possible that your within a couple hundred pounds which really isn't that much. Remember, the hull was hand laid, so variations are possible over or under the published weight. Published weight for the 22 was 2050 pounds, with standard console and captains chairs, yours could have started out at 2050, or 2150 or 2025. If you think your within a couple hundred pounds, I would patch the holes and not worry about the possible water.

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I have the larger console, so I assume that's the super? And the leaning post has storage behind it. I've tried to attach a pic to give you an idea, and it's under the max size, but it doesn't seem to post.... The guy at the boat yard said the engine weighs 800 lbs, which would put me in the no-worry couple of hundred pounds category, but I just looked up the weight on Nada and it's only 450 lbs. So by my estimation I'm up in the 900+ lb range...

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Dave

The weight from the scales is about what I would expect.

You know I spent days working myself into panic over the same thing when I bought my boat. When I had my boat surveyed back in 04 before I bought it the guy who surveyed the boat stated it have some elevated levels of moisture in the hull towards the stern. The way he said it and what he implied of course FREAKED me out. I was all in a panic thinking that I was going to get a wet hull. After thinking about and doing lots of reading I called him back. After a short discussion I realized this guy unfortunately had VERY limited knowledge of how whalers really are and it was not uncommon to find some elevated moisture readings in the foam. The only reason I used him was the Bank would not give a loan without a survey due to the boats age and he was the only one with openings for about a month.

Any ways now on my 4th year with the boat it has never been an issue.

Honestly the best way to tell if the hull has water in it and how much is to float it. If the water line is in line with specs you should be good to go (From the image attached your bottom paint seems to be with spec.) Seal the holes up and use the boat for the season. If you have time this season before splashing the boat drill some holes along your keel towards the stern as see what comes out. I only got a couple drips out of my hull in the week I had in up on blocks for repainting the hull.

As for the vacuum....I think I might have a better option...
(Warning you are about to read an untested THEORY, there is no scientific data to back this claim:))
The vacuum idea is one that many people have had however, it will only work for a small area around the vacuum point. I have a theory (because I have not tested on a hull yet) that if you create a low psi (5 to maybe 10 psi at most) of air pressure inside the foam area of the hull it that work work better. Here is my thinking. When I sucked the water out of the foam around my fuel tank I removed all of the foam from the stern area of the fuel tank creating a void for water to collect. Then using a wet / dry vac I would suck teh water out. This would work great however once all of the water in the void was sucked up I would have to wait 30 minutes for it to fill back up.

So I was only able to suck the water out of the foam in the area that was close to the vacuum. Then the rest of the water still in the foam around the tank would begin to find the lowest area and begin pooling again through gravity.

So if the vacuum only is pulling the "head waters" and not the whole body of water what is you created something to push that body of water from behind. Now the fuel tank cavity would not work for this but the inside of a hull is perfect because the pressure will push against the rest of the hull thus forcing the water out of any open escape route (holes along the keel). Just a crazy thought.

As for the foam. Well many whaler dealers state with great certainty that whaler's foam will not hold water because it is a closed cell foam. Yes there are right. But ,that is only right from the time it leaves the factory. Over the many years of normal use, and especially if you live in an environment where there are freezing temps, the foam has all kinds of forces acting on it and over time those cells break open. Once open water can and will let water in and let it move about.

Bottom line is unless there are large cracks forming on your hull and there are no signs of MAJOR repairs done to the boat your boat should be structurally sound and enjoy it. Congrats again on the boat you will love it. When I fulfilled my childhood dream of getting my 22 Outrage it was one of the best days of my life. Of course like anything there are rough times but, it is the good times that make you forget back the bad;).

I responded to your email to me and included a phone #. Please, feel free to call me tomorrow or anytime and I am more than happy to help talk you through any questions on your 22. Also I have some 22 Outrage hull identifier graphics and Whaler Logos for your hull if you need some.

Post some more pictures on a personal page.

Cheers,
Jeff

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Thanks for the reply Jeff, I am where you were for sure, nervous about a wet hull! You mentioned the water line, and that's what originally got me thinking that the hull was heavy with water. The previous owner moored the boat, and it has barnicles on the bottom 1/4 of the engine transom bracket (basically to the top edge of the bottom paint line). Other pic's I've seen of 20 and 22 footers in the water, even with little kicker engines on the back, seemed to be sitting about 2-3" higher in the water based on the bracket and the paint line.

You also mentioned cracks, did you mean inside or on the outside of the hull? I have a lot of cracks inside and was actually going to post another separate question about them. The outside of the hull appears to be in decent shape, other than the two perforations in the chine, with no major repairs that I can detect or that the previous owner (who seemed to be a very honest and straight forward guy) knew of.

I also thought of using my compressor to "lightly encourage" the excess water to exit with low psi, but my big fear would be also encouraging delamination as I have no idea what the strength of the bond is at this point. This whole wet foam issue really appears to be a one way street - gets wet, stays wet. The funny thing is I had to buy a new trailer as the previous owner kept it at a marina, and when I added the numbers based on the factory spec's, almost went with the 3700 lb trailer, now with the 4000 lb under the boat and getting the weigh in today, I feel like I'm at the upper limit of the new trailer! Though I assume and hope there's a safety margin built in there somewhere as I gotta get gas...!

So I may take a shot at getting it weighed at the local transfer station as they have scales, but your point is well taken, repair the leaks and see how it runs this summer. I'd love to take it all apart and refurbish it this winter, but a lot will depend on the feedback I get on the interior cracks as well as how it does on the water. I'm going to take some pic's tomorrow of the cracking and try to post them. Even in the shape it's in now, it's a great boat and I'm really excited about having it!

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You've got a great boat. Hope you get a lot of enjoyment out of it. It's been informative looking at the various posts, especially Tom's about the various theories.

I still have a chunck of foam I removed from my boat about a month ago. It's maybe 6X6X3 inches. I cut it in half this morning, and having dried for over a month, it's still soaked inside. That's without any fiberglass on either side of it, and that's a thin piece!

Stay in touch, and see you out there.

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As a point of reference, my old 1987 22 Outrage sat with the chines just barely under water at the transom with nobody aboard. This was a boat with a 43lb merc 200, no T-top, 1 battery in the console and captains chairs, and not much else.

I'm going to make a WAG, and assume that a 22 outrage is 7 feet wide at the waterline, and that it is 14 feet on long on average if we square it off the waqterline cross section. That means that each additional inch of draft displaces 8 cubic feet or water, or ~500 lbs. So a 22 that is 1000lbs heavy is going to sit 2" lower than one that is not.

If you are concerned, take everything out of the boat that isn't nailed down, estimate the rest as closely as you can, and then weigh the package.

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Here is an image of the boat in the water. This is a week after I bought the boat and it has 2/3 tank of fuel.

As you can see the chines at the stern are barely in the water...

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Your fine, over and above the stadard configuration you have a t-top, leaning post, super console and an unknown quanity of gas. That's a lot of weight so at just under 4000 pounds, I am not suprised by the numbers. Have you dropped it in the water yet and taken a spin? Seal up all the holes you can fine and I wouldn't worry too much.

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Thanks for all the replies, very much appreciated! That second picture you posted Jeff is one of the two I'd initially seen that got me thinking. It looks like you have about an inch between the bottom of the bracket and the water line, mine appears to sit much lower according to the barnicles on the bracket itself.

Very interesting calculation Plotman, would be just about right according to the numbers so far...

And Dan, your post reinforces my growing conclusion that there's not much I can do if there's water in there. I'd just like to have a fair idea of where I'm starting at. Based on where you took that chunk of foam from, and the info contained in Tom's post, what's your thinking on the mechanism of how the foam got so wet?

Two quick questions, does any one know if the factory specifications for the weight included the console and seating? (your point is well taken Kamie!) And second, is there any kind of dipstick or snake method of determining how much gas may be in the main tank as the gauge doesn't work and I'm at a loss for determining the quantity short of removing the console and deck. As always, your replies are incredibly helpful!

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Derwd,

See the specifications for the Outrage 22' here:
http://www.whalercentral.com/userphot...album_id=1

"Standard Configuration" for the Outrage 22' would be:
1. Bow Rail
2. Standard Console
3. Swivel Seats (Captains Chairs)
4. Under Gunwale Rod Holders
No engine, No fuel, No battery(s), No trailer.....

That should cover it.

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Re: draining the fuel tank:

Find the fuel line where it comes from the tank.

If the fuel line has been cut, then pop the center deck plate at the stern of the boat and find the fuel pickup tube, reconnect a fuel hose with a primer bulb and no fitting on the other end. Pump to siphon old fuel into red portable containers and dispose of properly.

If the pickup is not working, remove the pickup tube (should be about 4-5 screws in the tank), unseal the gasket and siphon from the tank itself.


Good luck.

Dave

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I wouldn't guess on the moisture theory beyond what Tom said. I just know, as he said, it gets in there, and its hard to get out! I did have an interesting time with the forward locker. I'd got the boat all sealed up and ready to paint, and after powerwashing it, two more holes turned up at the lower corners of the forward locker (the ONLY locker, really, on my 17!) So out came the hairdryer again! I ran it in one side and after a while, water started bubbling up the other hole, much to my surprise. I kept taking out a couple of tablespoons at a time with a syringe, and after about 10 hours, I probably took out maybe a pint. It slowed down after that, but I ran the hairdryer on it for another 30 hours or so (on low) and got maybe another quarter pint. Then it dried up. It did seem to migrate away from the heat or vaporize upwards. Darned if I know. And I don't know that there's any practical advice in the experience... just thought I'd throw it out there. I was glad to get what I could out of there.

As to the weight of the gas, I'd suggest you just fill the tanks up. Then you should be able to accurately account for their weight.

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Thanks for the replies. I took the boat up to the transfer station today and had it weighed, guy said the scale there is pretty accurate to 80 lbs give or take. Total with the trailer was 4560 Lbs. New trailer is 880 Lbs, so that brings it down to 3680, which is a bit better than what the boat yard guy said yesterday (and most of the equipment was still on board). I weighed most of the misc. gear and it's approx 150 lbs, so I'm a little over 3500. From here on in, it's anyone's guess as far as the bimini, console, post, and main fuel weight... But given that, the 600 lb difference I get when I approximate "should be" numbers doesn't look too bad?

That being said, I followed your link Joe and if I'm safe in assuming that the draft is max at the stern in these boats, a quick measure to my barnicle line confirms this is sitting 2.5 to 3" lower than that in the water. Sigh....

Thanks for the draining idea Dave, I may give that a go. It's one way to answer the question and eliminate that variable. Just need to figure who would be able to handle disposal...

And I would consider filling it Dan, very good idea. Unfortunately the previous owner never used the tank, so I have no idea what's in there? Can't be good after all this time I'd imagine.

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Do not assume your trailer weighs 880 pounds. Launch the boat and take the trailer back to the transfer station and figure out how much it really weighs.

The very best way to calculate the fuel is to FILL the tank. You know the tank's capacity and you know that gas weighs 6.2-6.5 pounds per gallon.

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Thanks for the reply Tom, but would it be prudent to fill a tank that hasn't been used in a number of years with an unknown amount of old fuel in there?

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Pump or syphon a little bit out and see how it looks in a glass jar. If it looks bad, discard it it or run it in your lawn mower, then reflll the tank with fresh gas.

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Thanks Tom. Just had a thought, is there any chance they stopped using the tank at some point because it may have had a leak? I don't know much about the track record of these tanks, or if that's a possibility, but it seems curious they'd stop using it. It would be a real mess if I filled it only to find it was leaking!

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Dave,

Not all fuel tanks go bad. Generally the tanks that go bad are the ones where the boat has been left out in the weather for many years sitting in a dock or outside uncovered. Many of these boats also have a bad floor for the same reason.

Of course, anything is possible.

I would do as others have mentioned above. Drain or pump some fuel out and see what it looks like. Replace the fuel lines no matter what... Make sure you have a fuel/water separator and that it has a new filter... Put 20 gallons of fuel in the tank and check for leaks.. Then another 20 gallons.... and so on... This may take awhile to check, but I think it would be worth it if you are concerned about the tank leaking.

I would also fix your fuel gauge if it is broken. The gauges are still available.

I moved up in size from my Montauk for several reasons. More deck space, the built-in fuel tank, and a better ride in chop...

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Thanks for the reply Joe. I don't know the history of this boat, and it could well be one that sat out in the weather. I'm going to post some pic's of interior cracking that could provide a clue, and also wanted to say that the forward anchor locker cover as well as both on each side of the center fishwell locker have been replaced with wood, don't know if that's an indicator they'd gone bad from exposure...

But I get the feeling if there were a fuel leak after a 20 gallon addition, I'd know it pretty quickly, or is it something that would take a while to seep out as the tank is encased in foam?

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I would suggest two courses of action.
1. as Tom suggested, pump out some of the gas and take a look. If there is water in the gas be suspicious.
2. get the tank leak tested. You might have to call around, but check with the local marinas and possibly auto garages. That will confirm if the tank is good.

That is a large boat, with a thirsty engine. You want to be able to go far and using portable tanks really isn't practical.

The first thing I would do is as Joe said, replace all the gas lines, if they haven't been replaced. It could be that the previous owner stopped using it because there was a gas leak in the fill hose, and he assumed the tank was bad. With the t-top it will be a pain to replace the vent hose, but possible. The fill hose should not be an issue. Assuming the 22 is like the 18, remove the fill hose and plug the tank inlet and cleanup the gas. Then undo the vent hose and use it to pull a new one thru, under the deck. you might also want to use a fish tape and the old hose in the event the old hose comes apart. Take your time, the fit is tight and it snakes over the tank straps, often with little or no clearance. I would also run the new hose from whichever end is closest to a tank strap, I believe that means you thread it in from the tank connection, not the vent side. Once you have that on, then replace the fill hose. Tighten all the connectors, making sure you put the loop back in the vent hose.

Tom is correct, weigh the trailer. Is the 880 pounds for the trailer, shipping weight or actual weight as currently rigged?

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You definitely should get the old fuel out of there before filling the tanks. Good point that the fuel is suspect. I like the lawnmower method of "disposal," if the fuel looks burnable (if you saw my mower, you'd understand!). You can weigh the fuel you take out and subtract it from your total. Weigh the receiving container first, and then again with the fuel in there.

Bottom line is you're going to get this thing in the water, hopefully soon, and some of the stuff you're worrying about now ain't gonna happen, and other things will come up! All in all, I imagine you're going to have a blast.

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Thanks Kamie and Dan. The previous owner has what I believe are 2 of the plastic 12+ gallon tanks aft of the leaning post, and one larger 24+ gallon tank inside the super console (he must have had to lift the console to get it in there), so he had about 50 gal. capacity that way.

The trailer is new from the factory and those are their numbers stock. I had them add 3 keel rollers, and that's it for options. I'm going to put on 3 more, but wasn't sure if their brackets would allow the rollers to reach the keel, and I was right, they don't. So I'm going to have to swap for longer brackets anyway. So their three add'l rollers would be an addition of only 25 lbs or so to the factory weight?

Your point is well taken Dan. This being a new boat, and seeming to sit noticably lower in the water, I wanted to get a decent idea of what I'm starting with. I'd like to refurbish the boat over the winter, but want to make sure it's worth it. She has a lot of interior cracking and I'm going to do a separate post with pictures to get some feedback on that (it's the last bullet I have to dodge!). So all this is mainly to get a baseline and see where to go from here.

The bottom side and other needed repairs will happen and she'll hit the water, hopefully sooner rather than later, with the weight issue and reason she's sitting lower accounted for or not!

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Well I drilled my holes every few feet up the side of the keel yesterday to check for water in the hull and though there is some in there and is still slowly dripping, I haven't had very much volume at all (maybe 2 shot glasses from each of the 3 holes at the stern end). Not sure what the time to quantity ratio usually is, but I thought it good that I didn't have any streaming out?

I have to admit, curiousity got the best of me while I was doing this and I tried your experiment Jeff with the low pressure air injection to see if I could induce more water flow out an adjacent hole. I hooked the air hose up to the middle keel hole and set the pressure to 5 PSI. It had a tiny bit of an effect on the next hole aft, which was about 2.5 to 3' away, but not a lot and it didn't last more than a minute if that. So I ramped up to 8-9 PSI and couldn't get anything else to happen. The interesting thing is the hole in the spray rail that I think let most of the water in initially (which I also opened up and is completely dry after the winter) is closer than the hole I drilled, but the hole I had the air hose hooked up to did a very good job at holding the pressure, so I think I can conclude that delamination isn't an issue (in that area anyway). But I just wanted to let you know of my attempt, would have been great if it worked! The conundrum continues...! If anyone has any more suggestions like Jeff's I'd be glad to give it a try while I still have the holes open and dripping.

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Try a hairdryer to warm a spot between two holes. Maybe the third theory Tom enumerated (the vapor transfer theory) explains my experience with the anchor locker.

Flipped my boat yesterday to work on the bottom and had another surprise. By the bow where the rubrail would go, water started seeping from a tiny opening. It stopped after an hour. losing maybe a half a cup of water. So I drilled the rubrail area in 6 test spots. Overnight, nothing came out of these holes.

Looked at pics of your boat again, and boy, she's a beaut. Keep us updated on your progress!

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Thanks for the compliment Dan!

I was thinking last night how I'd go about filling my test holes with epoxy if they're still wet as I think some of them would drip slowly for weeks... I was going to break out the hairdryer for that, so I'll give your suggestion a go. I remember working with some thickened epoxy many years back that inadvertnetly got wet and boy did it get hot!

Had the same experience you did at the bow, but mine was at the transom. Pulled the transducer as there were many small unfilled holes in that area, and as I was sanding to remove the bottom paint to prep for the patch, noticed when the area was warm from the sun, a few other small areas that were weeping on the other side of the engine... Did the same as you with the test holes and got pretty much the same result.

BTW, was reading Joe's article on transom hole repair and he answered another question as the ground plate for the gas tank on the transom was painted over with bottom paint and I didn't think it should be, Joe confirmed it in his article. Yet another good day on the WhalerCentral site!

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I'm not sure that water will make the epoxy hot... someone jump in here if I'm mistaken... the most common thing in my experience (which is not that much!) is when a big blob of epoxy is applied all at once. Thinner layers dissipate the heat. That's why you don't want to build up a deep area too quickly. I think Joe mentions that in his article, or another one. (I ditto your appreciation of the wealth of quality material here!)

For example, if there was a fair amount of foam missing from your holes, I wouldn't fill it with epoxy unless I did it in several steps. Probably would use bondo (body filler) which sets up quickly, and then patch the inside and outside with epoxy and cloth. By the way, epoxy is not compatible with mat (chopped strand), which has a binder to hold it together instead of the weave.

I agree about the hairdryer. Run it all night if necessary. (Make sure it's not going to melt anything!) Dry is good!

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Thanks Dan. As an approximation, where would you draw the line on thickness of epoxy, 1/4"? Was also thinking that I drilled 3/8" holes to check for water up the side of the keel and was going to inject them with thickened epoxy (wasn't sure how deep to dril so I went about 2.5" in, probably too deep?). Then I remembered how you used the spray foam from the Depot to reattach your deck, am thinking I could use that to fill my test holes almost all the way, then top off with a bit of thickened epoxy?

And finally... Since the hairdryer seems like a point source of heat, was considering using a strip electric heater I use to take the chill off the sun porch in the late fall, under the boat to get some heat up along the keel. It's about 5' long and thin so it would cover the rear section of the keel, which is where I got the drips from. I could start far away and raise it to adjust the heat, unless you think the moving air from the hair dryer is a key component? I'm sure there's some convection movement, but the hairdryer is like a cyclone in comparison!

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1/4 inch is a good limit... don't think you can go wrong with that

definitely experiment with the strip heater.... you may solve the conundrum, and become famous for your discovery! The blowing hairdryer would seem to get the heat in the hole itself better (or as they spell it around here, the "whole" -- something to do with Whaler?)

don't worry about the depth (you worry too much!) you can put whatever you want in there, as long as you have a plug of epoxy maybe half an inch deep. Kamie suggested pushing some epoxy wetted cloth in the holes with a pencil. That's what I'm going to do.

You're doing great! :D

Nothing like a Whaler.... not even a Carolina Skiff!

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Thanks Dan, I appreciate the encouragement! I'll try the heater and let you know how it goes. I've done just a little fiberglass/epoxy work in the past, add in the Whaler foam construction, and it's a new dimension for me. But I really like developing new skills and appreciate everyone's guidance. Most of the nervousness comes from the fact that this isn't just any boat, it's the one I've always wanted.

And you're right, there is NOTHING like a Whaler. Every time I look out the window and see the boat, I think to myself a long slow Yeaaaaaahhhh....!

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I know the feeling

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I’ve recently purchased a 1963 13” sport that’s in rather rough shape.
Before I purchased it, I knew there was water in the hull because of all the holes
on the deck and not being covered for a few years, so I drilled a couple holes in the bottom along the keel to see just how much.
I had a few drops within a couple hours, but I guess I was expecting more.
After I got the motor running, I stripped everything off and flipped it over
on the trailer to get a good look at the damage to the bottom.
Since I won’t be able to work on it for a few months, I decided to leave it
outside to try to bake some of the water out.
Last weekend I checked it out around 3:00 in the after noon, and when I looked
under it, water was bubbling out of the holes in the floor,( boat is still upside down).
The bottom of the boat was pretty hot, so I’m assuming it’s somewhat working.
But like Jeff said, being inclosed, I’ll never get all the water out.
I think even when I get to work on it, I’ll still store it outside and continue to let it bake.
I think it’s the best way, and since I don’t plan on finishing it this year, I leave it out there all summer.

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Thanks Keito, I was expecting more water out too as I know a lot got in there. I'm going to try some heat today and will let you know if it helps.

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Dave be careful with any heat as it will cause damage to the fiberglass. Also if there is water in the glass itself it will cause osmotic blisters to form in a hurry. High Heat and fiberglass typically are to things you try and keep apart.

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Thanks Jeff. I was planning to get it only as warm as what you'd expect if it were flipped over with the dark bottom paint facing up on a sunny day. Esp. after reading Tom's explanation earlier of the three ways water migrates in closed cell foam. I don't want to push it in any further for sure! Still surprised at how little came out of my test holes. If it weren't for the fact that she sits so low in the water at the stern, I'd be a lot less concerned with getting more out. I'll be done after this attempt as I'm going to close it all up, swap all the drain tubes and seals, and see how it goes - don't think I can get the bottom more water proof than that without some extreme measures!

As always, appreciate the input and guidance. Been incredibly helpful!

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Bought a trailer today from a guy who rebuilds outboards as a hobby. He also owns a '72 Whaler he hasn't used for years (he's got an Allison speedboat). Anyway, he related a unique idea he'd heard to rid a Whaler of water in the foam:

Drill one inch holes, about six of them, all along the lower part of the transom. Get six 3/4 inch PVC pipes, 10 feet long, and drill a bunch of holes in them. Cut each one off at a sharp angle on one end, and pound each one through the foam at each hole in the transom. Use a shop vac on each pipe. Someone claimed to get a couple of gallons that way.

Don't know how he'd fill the holes left by the pipes, though.

I've come up with an idea to really make this idea a winner. After draining as much as he can, pound the pipes all the way in (solving the compression / filling problem), epoxy them to the transom, and install one-way garboard plugs permanently on each one!



[IMG]http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb77/DelawareDan/whaler%20project/whaler%20parts/garboardPlug.jpg[/IMG]

Dan <---- taking bow. Conundrum SOLVED! B)

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I am also looking into getting a mid eighties 22 outrage, Do you know the weight of this boat w/o a cuddy? It has an older 200 Johnson, I'm concidering a repower with a 150hp Yamaha 4-stroke, Do you think it would be under powered? I ran a 21 cuddy this weekend (3200 lbs) with the 150 and it ran great, I'm thinking with the Whaler hull it should run just as good?

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The weight of the standard 22 hull out of the factory is approx. 2080 lbs and getting it weighed is a very good idea. You can go to NADA and find the weight of the engine, and be sure to consider any additional gear and the weight of any fuel in the internal tank. The Yamaha 150 4 stroke is a great engine from what I hear, but may be too small for this boat, especially if there's any additional water weight.

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I'm not sure if it was Jeff or Derwd24 who mentioned drilling a couple holes in the keel and slightly pressurize the hull to see if water would drain out.
How much water came out? did any? With buying a used boat sometimes the seller is not interested in doing the whole weigh station deal, Maybe the water line on the transom test is good enough for the initional purchase?

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When I went to the sea trial for my Outrage 20, I could see the bottom paint line was about 4 inches out of the water all the way around the boat.
Also, in the back of the boat, if you look down the side, there is a step near the water line. That step was barely in the water.
That seemed good to me. But I was just guessing.

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I tried the air pressure technique suggested by Jeff and didn't get a whole lot of water out unfortunately. Maybe a few drips more than I would have if I let it sit, but it wasn't much more. I had higher hopes, but this foam is stingy with the water once it gets a hold...

In comparing my water line (and I haven't had it in the water yet but the barnicles from the previous owners mooring make it pretty clear) to pictures of similar boats and engines like Jeff's, I'm definately sitting lower in the water. And by my approximate calculations, I'm at least 700 Lbs heavy if not more with water after having it weighed. My suggestion is to put it in the water and check the water line, if the boat seems to be floating high, you're all set. If it's low, don't rule it out, but try to get it weighed. If the owner says no, pass on that one and keep looking, another one will come along before you know it. You'll be very glad you did down the road.