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Hello all-

I enlisted a marine mechanic to do a riding diagnosis. The engine seems to run well at higher RPM, then may or may not lose power and die, or run at low rpms forever. It doesn't want to run in mid-range. We checked the following:

Primer bulb, new on-deck lines, fuel fresh, no water in separator, electrical connections, fuel filter inside cowl, cable adjustments, new NGK plugs We added some Seafoam also. He is suspecting an issue with the VRO unit itself , someone else suggested maybe a vacuum issue in the vro..What are the symptoms of a failing VRO? The engine runs fine, starts right up after it quits. I'll spring for the parts if necessary. New or rebuilt?

Hope this is enough info.

Today, I will clean all contacts and apply a little dielectric grease. Did the deck in almond Dridek yesterday. It's a nice product Have a great, safe Memorial weekend and remember our vets.

Thanks in advance!

John (crow)

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Has the problem been there for a while? Did it just start, for instance when you took the boat out of storage for the season? Were the carbs rebuilt recently? Any evidence of fuel leaking at the VRO? Many original VRO pumps eventually have diaphragm leakage due to ethanol.

Also, it could be an issue with the mid-range jet system.

I had a similar problem. It turned out to be that the plastic float bowls on the carbs had warped from ethanol. A careful rebuild of the carbs with replacement aluminum bowls, and making certain the plugs over the intermediate passages were well sealed, solved the problem.

John K.

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John-
Thanks for the advice.
I don't really have any history on the engine.. I use non ethanol,but who knows what was used previously. I can pass on your info to the mechanic.. I don't want this to turn into a bottomless pit..it's still an 88. Any thoughts on this? Am I being too pessimistic,or should I be thinking of a newer engine(ouch)? I'm thinking I could put a few grand into this engine and not solve the problem... It runs strong otherwise,and doesn't skip beat . When the engine starts to die,mid range, it responds to pushing in the choke. If I cut back the throttle ,it will run . It seems to start up from cold or hot allright.
Also, the power tilt, when all the way up, needs a push, until it gets around 1/4 of the way down. Then it works fine and goes all the way up just another thing(unrelated to the engine running issue.. I can live with that, but that could be another problem down the road. Am I in panic mode? Thanks in advance for any sympathy.
All the best,
John(crow)

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If it does turn out to be a VRO issue a new one could run you 400-500. I just did one on a 2001 motor that was 500. Super easy to do, 30 mins start to finish.

If you diagnosis down to the VRO it is possible to remove the entire VRO system, bypass it and pre-mix your fuel which is a low cost and fail safe alternative to the always sketchy VRO.

Just a thought.

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I have never known a VRO to be sketchy....

Pre-mixing fuel can be messy and at times, not very accurate.
You will also be running too much oil at idle and low speeds compared to running with a VRO that ratios the oil depending on speed.

Personally, I would not consider purchasing a boat that had the VRO disconnected.... unless they were throwing in the motor for free so I could junk it and just keep the boat...

I recommend always running and using the VRO unless you are broke or on a college budget and just can't afford to fix it properly.

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John, the first thing I would consider is a new mechanic - there's very little chance that the symptoms described could have anything to do with the VRO / fuel pump. The symptom of a failing VRO would be that the motor is getting too much or too little oil. In the one case it would smoke, and in the other you'd burn it up, but it would run fine. If the fuel pump itself had a problem, including with the vacuum connection, it wouldn't be pumping enough fuel, so it might run for a short while at full speed, but then drop off after you'd used up all the fuel in the float bowls. But if that were the problem, you'd be able to run in the midrange - again, possibly until you used up the fuel.

Start with the consistent symptom - that it won't run in the midrange at all. The first thing I'd do is a link'n'sync - easy enough to do yourself with the factory service manual, and cheap for a knowledgable mechanic. If that doesn't fix it, and it hasn't been done for a while, rebuild the carbs. Again, pretty easy yourself or for a good mechanic.

Good luck!

Tim

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Problems like this are almost always related to carburetion. They probably need to be cleaned- about $150 a piece to remove, clean, and reinstall.

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I have an 1985 140 and its probably the carbs, these last year Evinrude engines last of the carbs in the 80's,90's are pretty bullet proof. The carbs are very easy to work on, they need to come apart and be cleaned and put back together. The VRO may need a new diaphragm for the fuel side, but not likely I have own my engine since new and have only replaced it once, and I did it just because it was old. However I have done the carbs a couple of times, This new ethanol fuel will eat some parts in the carburetor, and the fuel also dries up and plugs your jets. If it turns out to be the VRO (Highly doubt it) it best to plug it off a just mix your oil/gas. I have been doing this since my engine was new and have never had a problem

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Have the carbs cleaned by a different mechanic. Often it takes
2 good cleanings to get them really clean.

I think your jets are clogged.

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John, I missed your second post - the statement Phil quotes nails it. Your motor actually doesn't have a choke, rather a primer. When you push the key in, you're giving a squirt of fuel right into the manifold. The fact that it smooths out when you do that indicates you're running too lean in the midrange. A carb rebuild is indicated. The parts for this are only about $35 per carb if you want to do it yourself, and the manual will run you about $80.

I still think you'd be wise to go to a different mechanic - you could indeed spend a lot of money and get nowhere, and it sounds like this guy doesn't really understand motors.

You may already know this, but you don't want to run the motor in it's current condition for any length of time - 2 strokes count on the appropriate fuel mixture for lubrication and cooling, and you risk damaging the motor if you continue to run it.

Good luck!

Tim

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Thanks to all for the info-
Curious- where can I get some carb kits for this engine and possibly replacement floats? What's a link and synch? How long can I run this engine without damage or at all? I was planning on using it this weekend? Definitely don't want to destroy it..So you guys would try to fix the carbs first? The engine does not smoke noticeably i.e. I don't see a trail behind the boat or anything.. I don't want to disable the vro for reasons Joe mentioned..I had ANOTHER mechanic suggest that and he's been doing engines for 40 years I have alot of faith in the knowledge of this forum.. Thanks in advance
John(crow)

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Marineengine. come or iboats.com for rebuild kits. They're pretty inexpensive as it's just gaskets and needle/seat/float. I'll ask again: do you have plastic float bowls? If so, they're black. If you have to replace the bowls with the aluminum ones it begins to get expensive, about $200 to do both (you'll need four new mid-range jets if you put on new bowls).

John K.

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the gage-
I, nor anyone else, has opened up the carbs to check the floats so don't know..guess that will be the first step..so the guys are saying don't run the engine if I have a possible lean condition?
Thanks,
John

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You don't have to take the carbs off, just look at them. The float bowls are the bottom half of the carbs.

Yes, if you have a possible lean condition that means the engine isn't getting adequate fuel/oil mixture, and since that's what also lubricates all of the internal engine parts you could burn a piston or trash a bearing.

John K.

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You don't have to take the carbs off, just look at them. The float bowls are the bottom half of the carbs.

Yes, if you have a possible lean condition that means the engine isn't getting adequate fuel/oil mixture, and since that's what also lubricates all of the internal engine parts you could burn a piston or trash a bearing.

John K.

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You can always a decarb with sea foam before you pull them apart. Run a 3 or 6 gallon tank with tripple the normal amount of sea foam. Shut down the engine, let it sit for a couple hours or over night then start it up and burn off the carbon, should smoke like crazy. do it a couple times. You also probably want to run double the sea foam in your regular tank, for awhile, that should help clean out the jets.

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Thanks John- I'll let her sit at the dock this weekend...I have float bowls on my MG's Su carbs and my bikes..so am I looking for stuck float,warped /cracked float/ sticking needle dirty jets etc? Seems like the direction on the forum is carbs and not the vro.
Should I be looking for another engine or try to salvage this one..I don't know how long this one has been run by the previous owner?

Thanks,
John(crow)

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John -- The symptoms you describe have nothing to do with the VRO system. It is far more likely the fuel system is involved, but keep in mind these particular V-4s were known for very poor midrange.

I had a friend with a 1988 Outrage 18 and a 140 Johnson (big brother to your motor) and that motor was fast but it never could hold mid-throttle settings. While my 150 HP V-6 Johnson could cruise all day at 3500, my friends 140 simply would not, it wanted to run at 4500 RPM.

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I should add that the very first thing to do is isolate the problem and I would start by simply running the motor on a portable tank of fresh gas, no additives. Just see if that alone solves the problem.

Always start with the simple and obvious things first before tearing things apart.

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Agreed, but after I really took some care with the carbs on my 1994 V4 it performs quite nicely at just about all throttle settings.

John K.

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John, you're likely looking at dirty jets - leaking or stuck floats would behave differently. But if you understand carbs, just do a full rebuild - not worth fooling with any half measures.

Link and sync is the process of adjusting the linkages to synchronize the carbs and the spark advance. It's not hard with the factory manual. I got my carb kits and factory service manual from marine engine.com and I would recommend them.

Tim

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I agree the issue sounds very much carb related. I am going through the same type of issue with my 1990 Evinrude 88, (essentially the same motor in many ways.)

First thing I did was get the rebuild kit part number off the BRP website.

I went to the auction site ( sounds like tree day) and found a seller who caried the Sierra carb rebuild kit for under 19.00, with free shipping. That my project for next week.

If it's worth anything, the motor I have does not have the VRO, but very similar issues. I'm pretty sure it's gunked up jets.

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Tom Clark: something is not right with your friends 140, my engine runs just fine at any speed/rpm's . Also do you really think that OMC would release an engine that did not operate correctly at a mid range RPM?

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If you do have plastic carb bowls, make sure they aren't warped. I had to do it over once I found the old bowls didn't seal fully.

John K.

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Tom,Kamie and all-
Thanks for all the additional info..The Outrage sat at the dock all weekend,finished the Dridek.I dared not run it for fear of burning something up .if I indeed do have a lean problem..SO, if I run a fresh mix of gas/oil, am I in danger of damaging the engine? So add triple dose of seafoam? I'm thinking carb rebuilds in any event. The concensus is not a vro problem at this point.
Thanks,
John

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John, from your description, I would say there is some risk of damaging the motor if you run it at speed.

Tim

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Hello all-
I left out an important thought in my last post.
I only need to run the engine/boat around one mile to the boat launch..If I run at low speed, would that be ok? Need to get to another mechanic. Thanks.
John(crow)

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John, you said it ran fine at low speeds, so I think you'll be fine. Good luck!

Tim

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Hello all-
Sorry about the duplicate post..computers aren't my thing. Anyway,an update on the mid range running problem on my 120 Johnson VRO
Carbs have been cleaned and new kits installed
One coil replaced as it showed high reading.
Runs great from idle to @2K or 3k to wide open..in those ranges ,it runs strong and well. Dies between 2-3K. Am I missing something? It always starts right up,use non ethanol fuel
and have a fuel/water separator installed. System was pressurized for air leaks.
Thanks in advance,
John (crow)

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John, you will get the hang of it.

I certainly can't think of what is causing that problem.
Hopefully some engine guru's can figure this one out.

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Thanks Joe-
I was wondering if it could be a sticky/faulty mechanical advance? I had this problem on my MGA distributor one time..

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John how is your fuel bulb? (only use,replace with a factory one and you need the larger 3/8 with the 120)) also are you running the vro with your unit? Check the gas side of the vro for the diaphragm maybe bad? Check the small filter on the engine also the filter you have installed. What happens does the engine just quit a 2500 rpms? Really just sounds like something simple not getting gas or air causing the engine to quit...Good luck

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Hello contender-
Yes, I'm using the vro. The small filter is ok. The bulb does not go flat,gets hard when I first pump it. basically, if I attempt to run faster than @2000,2100 , OR less than 3000, it will slowly die within that rpm range..Always starts back up. Sometimes if I'm quick on the throttle back, I can prevent it from dying. Now, if I'm cruising at say 2000,and I boot it to 3000 or more very quickly, it will take off like a rocket. If I try to gradually feed it throttle from 2000 to 3000 it will die. It will run wide open all day if you want to..never dies below 2k or above 3k..
Hope this helps!
Otherwise ,I love this boat! Only one on the lake and it gets alot of compliments.
All the best,
John

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John, thanks for bringing this interesting problem here to WhalerCentral. This one really is intriguing. I'm guessing it isn't the mechanical advance, as I'd think that would affect your top end as well and you say it runs fine there.

How quickly does it die when you attempt to run it in the problem range? Your description of taking off like a rocket when you throttle up makes me suspect it's getting too much fuel in that midrange, so when you pop the throttle open the fresh air straightens out the mixture and you get that burst. If it runs for 20 or 30 seconds or so before it starts to die, that could be it. On the other hand, if it starts to die right away, I am more thinking that the spark advance is mismatched to the carb opening. You said that you did a carb rebuild - that's a full cleaning, new floats, new seat, etc.? Did they also do the link & sync?

Tim

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Thanks Tim- I know he didn't replace the floats or needles,just cleaned them ,replaced gaskets and seal kit.Hmm.. To answer questions-
It will die within a minute or two entering the problem range.
he said the linc and sync was ok
Another interesting thing.. previously,when it would die,I could catch it if I pushed the primer...now if I do that ,it stumbles..like it's getting too much fuel..opposite of before.. I can run the boat for the rest of the season as is I suppose,and send the carbs off to someone in the fall..I know my riding mechanic is getting expensive!
Thanks for your help!
John

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Well, that's a headscratcher. The only thing I can think of is that one of the carbs has a slightly leaky float needle, so that it seals OK at idle, but once the fuel pump is pushing more pressure in the midrange it shoves fuel past the needle and into the carb throat and motor. And then at high speed, that still happens, but it doesn't matter as the motor is happy to use up the extra fuel. That's all pretty far-fetched and speculative.

I'd certainly try new floats, needles, and seats if they are changeable on your carbs. Kind of a shame your mechanic didn't just replace them while he had the carbs apart as the incremental cost is almost nothing. Also, if I recall correctly, some OMCs had a pulse limiter in the vacuum line to the fuel pump that limits the maximum fuel pressure - you might want to look up whether your motor is supposed to have such a thing, and if so verify it's in place.

Tim

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I'm not familiar with the Johnson carbs, but from what he is saying it sounds like there is a dead spot and the carbs are starving out.

Pushing the primer would enrich the mixture, goosing the throttle to up the RPM's also hits the accelerator pump adding fuel.

When the carb was rebuilt did the mechanic soak it (carb dip and blow it out). A blocked vacuum passage can cause this, in a car incorrect base gaskets can also affect performance. What is confusing is that this is multi-carb motor - since the motor runs at idle and high speed it would appear that the carbs are working and points to more of a single source issue.

You said the fuel bulb was good and all of the fuels lines \ filters are good no air leaks, I would check the fuel pump diaphram - and all connections for blockage if you haven't already.

This is a real puzzler...