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Those of you who have received a copy of Boat U.S. magazine already know what this is about. This post is for those of you who don't receive the magazine.

Here is a Cliff-note version of the article:
1) Ethanol enhanced gasoline doesn't loose octane faster than regular gasoline.
2) It isn't important to install a water separator to prevent water from reaching the engine (in so much as Ethanol enhanced gasoline is concerned).
3) Additives will not prevent phase separation.
4) Ethanol enhanced gasoline cannot "reach out and grab moisture"
5) E10 Ethanol enhanced gasoline is an acceptable fuel for everyday use.
6) E15 gasoline IS NOT an acceptable fuel.
7) After transitioning from E0 fuel, E10 may actually be a superior marine fuel as it tends to keep low levels of water moving through the fuel system, keeping the system "dry".
8) Don't immediately assume E10 is the problem.
9) To help avoid condensation, do not store the fuel tank empty. Fill the tank leaving a small air space for expansion and contraction.

All I know is what the article stated and have no ability to confirm or repute what is in the article. There are those who will disagree with some, most or all of what I've repeated from the article. Among the sources sited were Mercury Marine, BP Global Fuels Technology and a senior engineering consultan with Chevron Fuels. The article was written by Bob Adriance, editor of "Seaworthy"

Some of you more inqusitive and technical types may want to research what the article says and give us your take on it.
Zap

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I did read the article ....interesting. now lets try 15 % good idea huh lol. i hope the isobutol works out .. sounds promising

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I know two things about the Ethanol and no article is going to change my thinking/experience/uses of the fuel. #1 I'm sorry but ethanol eats my carbs/hoses in my lawn equipment and in the smaller Yamaha Four Strokes (I have had problems with 3 engines 4 hp, 15 hp, and a 60 hp all 4 strokes) it clogs the jets. Next it cost more to produce the ethanol than what it produces and the reason it is force on us ,is because some politicians are making a bundle...

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your right .. im sure money has a lot to do with it .i am concerned big time about the increase in ethanol content going to 15 % .it seems the metals in our outboards cant take it long term. the isobutal [spelling] looks promising . hey and what about the proposal in some states to not allow recreational boaters to use bottom paint with copper in it . but it will be ok for commercial an dgovernment boats . wheres the logic there.

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As stated before, ethanol eats the daylights out of my fuel lines, carb gaskets and fuel tank. Pure crap and because if the E-10, anything that requires corn has doubled and tripled in price. A steak that just a few short years ago paid about $4 a point now costs $12 a pound. WTF?? Thanks to the politics involved, we're paying more for everything. Pure politics, plain and simple.

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I have now run well over one thousand gallons of E10 through the 22 year old motors and fuel system of my 23 year old Whaler over the last three seasons.

I have absolutely zero problems from the Ethanol. Nada. Zippo.

Fuel lines: Fine.

Carburetors: Fine.

23 year old aluminum gas tank: Fine.

I've cut open my canister fuel/water separators twice now when replacing them and have found them to be perfectly clean. No gunk, no sediment, nothing.

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Well you don't have to be technical person, you just need common sense. At the authorized dealer/repair facility for Yamaha and Evinrude I use, they display signs which say either warranty does NOT cover ethanol caused problems. So, if you use it you are asking for problems, and they won 't be covered under the warranty.

Over a year ago, Yamaha went around Florida testing gas at many locations. The average amount of ethanol in the gas, was over 20%. What do you figure it will be when the move to "15%"?

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Tom, I had new fuel lines go bad within a year. I've replaced them with Ethanol resistant ( or whatever they're called) lines inthe spring and they are fine now. Yes, ethanol was the cause of my lines deteriorating.

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I can't believe we are talking about ethanol again...

The worst thing about ethanol has nothing to do with whether or not it eats plastic or aluminum which it does...

The real problem is it links the price of corn to the price of oil. If oil prices go up then so can the the price of corn as a result. This is why recently cola companies are marketing real retro cane sugar soda. The price of corn sugar floats higher than cane sugar and they take advantage of the market. They switched to corn sugar years ago when it was dirt cheap before some moron decided to put corn in our gas...

The real danger is not to us directly but to famine vulnerable countries in the third world. Increases in the price of essential food supplies such as corn can mean the difference between whole regions starving to death or not. As corn gets more expensive less of it is donated for famine relief as well. For this very reason food commodities need to remain independent of other financial influences, such as oil prices.

Burning food to power our vehicles is potentially one of the worst ideas ever. It's not even cleaner to burn and takes even more energy to produce. Methane burns cleaner and there is plenty of it. E10 soon to be E15 only makes sense to those who have financial stakes in corn futures and ethanol technology.

GET YOUR CORN OUT OF MY GAS !

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Let's keep the conversation focused on Boston Whaler's please.

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Ethanol ate holes in my Boston Whalers gas tank... How is that ?

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This thread has nothing to do with Whalers Phil.

Ethanol is a huge scam!!!

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even tho most pumps say they contain ethanol the majority actually do not.

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Please explain??

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I have to agree with Tom. I have run 10% ethanol fuel through multiple boats / motors- 1987 yamaha v-6's on a 1987 Pursuit with all origional hoses / fills, 1974 Johnson 115hp, 199? 115 johnson, etc etc, and have not had any fuel issues.
I Work in the industry, and unless a station owner is doing something hinky, you are getting as close to 10% as they can get.
Remember, oil companies want to sell gasoline not ethanol....

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Some points to ponder:

Why do certain, but not all areas offer "Rec" gas with no ethanol? In Florida "rec gas" is commonly available. Not here in New York. If they can offer it in Florida as an option, not sure why that's not the case here. Let the market make the decision. I read recently where E10 is being offered in Germany but meeting huge resistance from motorists.

Also-Around here, Marinas that sell fuel tend to sell down their inventory at the end of the season and leave their tanks low or almost empty for the winter. So even if you do what's recommended, there's a chance in the spring you may get a dose of "phase separated" fuel left in your supplier's tank.

As for new fuel lines, primer bulbs, etc going bad after a year or so, I honestly think manufacturer's have huge problem that's little discussed: quality control problems with their materials and products. I have had numerous items sourced from both national marine chains and mom and pop stores that have prematurely worn out, replaced them under warranty (and some on recalls!) to have the new items last just fine.

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Alcohol reacts on a chemical level with the rubber products, this is a fact and is known by all manufacturers of motors and fuel systems in the US. All plastics and rubber used in these alcohol fuel applications have to be made compatible with the alcohol contenet of the fuel making contact with these system parts. Have you noticed that auto manufacturerers now have a little emblem they put on certain vehicles like trucks and SUV's on the tailgate usually and maybe on the fender which indicate that the vehicle has been manufactured with Ethanol use in mind. These vehicles are rated based on the amount of ethanol they are capable of handling without damage, the highest I have seen is E-20.

The problem that has to be addressed as the alcohol content of the fuel is increased in the fuel mixture is the deposits that are left in the engine systems and catalytic converters as a result of the actual burning of the fuel. This had to be addressed even AFTER the problems with the fuel system components were resolved. This is the reason you cannot burn alcohol (Ethanol) blended fuels in older pre-Ethanol engines. If you run ethanol in engines that were not designed to burn it, you risk increased engine wear and eventual serious damage as a result of the deposits lrft in the moving parts of the engine and more frequent spark plug fouling. Also, the engine parts have to be able to handle the changes in temperature as a result of the alcohol burning at a different temperature than the gasoline in the mixture.

OK, that part was probobly also in that article that this post was extracted from, sorta, I don't know for sure as I have not read the actual article. The PRIMARY problem with ethanol as a fuel has always been the same, it is converting food into fuel. It is a scam to increase commodities profits, and this is very much connected to Whalers, in my opinion, because Whalers require owners to buy and operate them, (THAT WOULD BE US), and WE require food at a reasonable price in order to have enough expendable income to purchase and maintain them, as well as for continued operation of these vessels, as I tend to eat a bunch of corn-based snacks while I am fishing. The drinks I drink on the boat contain corn sweeteners and I have to be able to afford them too, I usually pick up these corny items when I get fuel, what a coincidence...

Sorry Phil, but as I see it, the discussion of the undrerlying problem of commodity prices related to the use of ethanol in fuel is exactly what NEEDS to be discussed by whaler owners and operators as well as by EVERY HUMAN BEING ON THE PLANET, as the damage to old engines like mine is inconsequential in magnitude compared to this.

Perhaps this thread should not have been started here anyway- maybe if someone could move it to Whaler Tales or something? Apparently, there is a politiical aspect to ANY discussion of Ethanol, and there certainly SHOULD be. The LIVES of human beings are LITERALLY at stake around the world regarding this issue.

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Silentpartner,

Your cogent and informative reply is appreciated.

As I recall, the "deposits left in the engine" aspect was not mentioned in the article. Are these deposits the reason that Yamalube Ringfree is suggested for Yamaha, and I'm assuming all 2 stroke outboards, engines?

Zap

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X 2

Deposits left in the engine on four stroke motors are scraped off the cylinder walls by the piston rings and sent down into the oil. Once the deposits are in the engine oil, they are filtered through the oil filter. This is why new, light brown oil turns black over time....carbon deposits contaminating the oil.....which in turn will cause wear on engine components if not changed regularly.

Two stroke motors are essentially the same as a four stroke motor when eliminating deposits except the deposits scraped off the cylinder walls are not deposited into the engine oil, the are ported out with the engine exhaust.

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How does anyone know that ethenol breaks down fuel lines? Because you see it from the outside? If that were so fuel lines would break down from the inside. Maybe the break down of your fuel lines which you see from the outside is caused by the solvent type lubricants people use on the motors to protect them are actually having an adverse affect. Solvent lubricants and heat can and will cause damage to rubber and plastic.

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Lol.

Because deposits from the fuel lines end up in the fuel filters and carb bowls. Pretty simple to figure out.

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What is so funny? I doubt what you say as fiction not fact. People always claim to know more than they do. Ethenol is ethyl alcohol a very fast evaporating solvent. Fuel/gasoline/petroleum what ever you want to call it derives from oil. Oil is a lubricant and will stay as a lubricant long before and after alcohol. Why are your fuel lines in your vehicle not deteriorating? Go get educated.

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It amazes me how people laugh and scoff at their lack of wisdom and knowledge.

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Dang John; be nice. CES is an Aeronautical Engineer motorhead kinda guy. Not exactly a man w/o knowledge but probably has the wisdom to not argue the point in question.
Zap

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You can do an easy experiment to see if ethanol does eat the tubing. Submerge the tubing in ethanol, cover and leave it for a while. Check and see if the tubing is deteriorating.

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If you google boatus you can read the article. I don't think it really answers much about ethanol , but the headline is as posted.
My opionion has been stated here before on another thread so I will not bore you with a reprise. I buy "real gas" for my boat and 2 stroke tools in Berlin Md. Funny that only areas near boating carry non-eth gas. Probably just coincidence.
REAL GAS is a website that will tell you state by state where it can be purchased.

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Zap I didn't single him out he sought me out.

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I am only stating my opinion. That for the group. Nothing more, nothing less. This is a forum.

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Thanks zap, some people are haters.

I've built and rebuilt many motors over the years and I've seen the effects of ethanol in motors. I'm in the process of doing an engine swap on another boat taking out the 540cid BBF motor (which I built up and stroked) and installing a Z06/LSX corvette motor. Big difference between an old school iron block carburated motor and a new school aluminum block computer controlled engine.

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Says who? His expertise is electronics not fuel.

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I'm done with it.
Zap

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Me too.

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Here's is a though, Did anyone have the problems they are having before Ethanol?

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Not me.

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I too have been a boater for many years (36). I will give my opinion as this. If you maintain your boat and motor as you should you will have minimal problems. It really is that simple.

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Interesting topic.

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What if Ethanol were banned as a fuel additive ?

1 - The price of corn would be cut in half overnight.
2 - Corn would be more plentiful to eat.
3 - Al Gore and Jimmy Carter would be pissed.
4 - Fewer humans would starve.
5 - Less livestock would starve leading to even less humans starving.
5 - The members of WC would not have to read about E10 anymore.
6 - Fuel lines and aluminum gas tanks across the world would all breath a collective sigh of relief.

Hey no downside ! So why does it exist to begin with ?

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You forgot the price of steak......it would drop too.

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I've been using E10 for at least 10 years and have never had a problem with my Yamaha 50 hp 2-stroke. I've never noticed any deterioration of the fuel lines either.

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I hate this topic but I just can't resist...

Let's assume for a moment that it does not cause engine/hose/fuel tank damage.

What to you get with E10 gas that you can't get from regular gas ?

Nothing...

This tells me everything I need to know...

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Actually you get about a 10% reduction in fuel mileage too. It take more alcohol to get the same of energy as compared to regular gas.

There are no benifits to burning ethanol at all. It's a less efficient fuel.

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So again... Why ?

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Here is a responce to this post from another site I visit daily:

As a chemist, let me clarify something: Alcohol results in "less mileage" not for some nefarious conspiracy plot but simply because of chemistry. What counts in a fuel is the number of carbon atoms per volume or weight of measure. For every two carbons in ethanol there is an oxygen atom and nearly all gasoline hydrocarbons have nothing but carbon and hydrogen atoms; ethanol has less carbon to burn and thus less BTUs or calories. This is the reason diesel has about 13% more "energy" than gasoline: the fuel is more densely packed with carbon atoms.

The oxygen atoms do help in one way: It gets more oxygen into the combustion and thus less likelihood of either unburned carbon (particulates) or partially oxidized carbon (carbon monoxide). That is why MTBE (methyl tertiary butyl ether) used to be added to gasoline--it improved combustion (as well as octane)--it was an oxygenate. Unfortunately, when underground gasoline tanks leaked, the MTBE did a great job of helping the gasoline move into the groundwater and MTBE is not healthy to drink. Thus, it was essentially replaced by ethanol as an oxygenate, not as an improvement in the fuel per se. However, with today's computer controlled fuel injected engines, they can get very good combustion without any oxygenate as part of the fuel.

The debate on how much fuel it takes to produce ethanol will go on forever since it all depends on what you measure and how you measure it. My best guess is that it indeed takes at least as much fuel to bring to market as it replaces and that combined with its corrosive effect on certain metals and hoses, tubes, o-rings, etc. plus its reduced role as a fuel oxygenate ought to at least mean it should stand on its own feet and not be subsidized and if it is made, it shouldn't be made out of a food crop which without any doubt, raises food prices. But my view on getting rid of ethanol in fuel is an opinion and no one is ever wrong with an opinion, just disagreeable.

Name withheld by Zap

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Zappaddles,

That was a very good explanation of Ethanol. Did anyone see the report today about the U.S. exporting a record amount of gasoline? Yep we are exporting 10% of our domestic gasoline production. Coincidence? I think not!

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It's amazing how much goes on begin the scenes and because it's now PC to talk about it, the media makes no mention of it. Juat look at the oil boom in the Dakota's? Do we hear about it?? Nope....

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I don't know what media you follow, but to take just one example, in the last four months NPR has done at least 6 stories on the Dakotas oil boom that either is directly about it or has significant content relating to it.

John K.

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I too have seen the Dakotas oil boom on a few of the channels. Here's a real out -of-left field question for those of us who would like to have cheaper gasoline for our Boston Whaler fuel tanks: How many have heard of the Haitian oil reserves? Yep, you read that correctly. Do an internet search on the subject. Pretty interesting.
Zap

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Between the Baken Reserves in the Dakota's, Off shore reserves and the oil in Alaska the US has as much or more oil than the OPEK countries.

What we lack are politicians willing to buck the trends and get us drilling. It is likely just as well that we don't drill because by the time the EPA and the Dept. of Energy get done regulating every aspect of the drilling process the fuels produced will be more expensive than what we currently buy from countries that have no such regulations.

Energy fuels are based on a Global Market and it matters not where the oil is found but what the current going price is for it. If China is willing to pay a premium then we will sell it to them or pay the going price to keep it here. If an ounce of gold is $1200 here in the US then it will be the same price in every other country based on that countries equivalent of the US dollar.

The price we are paying at the pump is more accurately based on the value of the US dollar and the more of them we print the less they are worth in the world market.

Ethanol is a failed experiment and as costly to produce as the fuels it is designed to replace. Just like wind and solar power, it costs more to produce it than the alternative fuels it replaces, coal and oil.

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Fellas -- The topic is E10 fuel and its effects on boats. The topic is not global oil production or energy policy. If you want to have a debate on global oil production and energy policy, take it elsewhere.

Ignoring the several ignorant off-topic comments from this thread, let me point out a few facts, and I'll preface it by stating that I personally think Ethanol in our nation's gasoline supply is really, really bad energy policy, but that has very little to do with the effect of E10 on boats.

- If Ethanol has 10 percent less energy per gallon in it, and that is a more or less accurate figure, that does not mean you will get 10 percent less fuel economy in your boat or car. E10 is a mixture of 10 percent Ethanol and 90 percent gasoline. A 10 percent reduction in energy of 10 percent of fuel means there is (theoretically) a net 1 percent reduction in fuel economy in your boat or car. It is insignificant in other words. This reduction in fuel economy can be measured by comparing the carefully measured fuel economy of a boat both before the advent of E10 fuel and after. I have fuel economy measurement of my own boat that I have taken for years from both before and after the introduction of E10 fuel here in Washington State. I have seen no change in my fuel economy as one percent is within the margin of error. Don't worry about worse fuel economy with E10.

- OMC (the predecessor of BRP) starting manufacturing outboard motors and fuel components that are rated for up to 10 percent Ethanol back in 1980. That is over 30 years ago. Mercury similarly manufacturers outboard motors that have Ethanol resistant components. My own 1989 Mercury Outboard's Owner's manual clearly state that the motors can be operated on fuel with 10 percent Ethanol with no ill effect. E10 is nothing new.

- In addition to my boat not suffering from the change to E10 fuel in 2009 (and I was very paranoid about the changeover when it happened because of what I had read) I also realize that I run my 9.9 HP outboard, two lawn mowers, one lawn edger, one line trimmer, one hedge shear, one power washer and several chainsaws with absolutely no effect from the E10 fuel we now use.

It would seem my own personal experience with Ethanol matches Boat U.S.'s conclusions very closely.

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Please,everyone read the article by going to Boatus and clicking on publications. Just my opinion but they don't cahnge my mind about ethanol one bit. I never believed the myths they pretend are the problem anyway. Read what they say about topping off tanks and that alone is reason to not want ethanol in your fuel. " In the midwest topping off is common as it reduces the condensation that leads to fuel separation. Fuel separation results in a highly corrosive mix of ethanol and water that damages fuel tanks." I paraphrased but that is essentially what it says. I am not sure if anyone else has not had time or inclination to top off their fuel tank before not using their boat for a month or two, but I have and it has resulted in a motor that was running fine when stopped, to one that needed the carbs removed, disassembled, and re-installed. Cost each time $300x3=$900. The mechanic who does this is totally honest and busy all the time with similar work. I have just purchased a 6 gallon tank to keep E-0 in to run the motor with after each late season use. I will keep you posted.
On another note my 115 4 stroke yamaha has been no problem with e-10 fuel. I specifically enquired about it when purchased [2004] and was told that the injected yamahas tended to handle the ethanol better.
Bottom line for me is this. Boats are fun, maintainence, expense, joy, pride, maybe even transportation. Adding to the maintainence and expense because we don't easily have the option to avoid e-10 is frustrating.

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As I pointed out earlier. Even if there is no downside, what is the upside ? NONE...

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Many people I know including myself have had issues with ethanol blended fuel. Any mechanic who does engine work for a living will tell you the same thing as what's stated above......corroded fuel tanks, deteriorating fuel lines and carb issues.

There's nothing to get over except the use of ethanol......

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Again, the topic is E10 in boats.

Off-topic comments will be deleted.

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I must protest. I agree with deleting off color comments, but E10 in my opinion has cost me money replacing an aluminum fuel tank that I would have otherwise spent elsewhere. How does my effort to make others aware that E10 is a crock not relate to my boat and for that matter everyone's boat. We are a group of boater enthusiasts sharing ideas and opinions. I agree let's keep it civil, but why police content ?

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http://pure-gas.org/
Should help those of you that want it, or feel you need it to find it.

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I haven't had any problems with E10 at all.

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i am not sure that i have had any issues due completly ethanol or not . I did have a problem a ccouple years ago with deteriorated fuel lines . The filter screen under the cowl was plugged with a rubbery goo . luckily did not trash the carbs . the fuel lines were far from new so probably should have been replaced a few years before . other than that i dont think ive had problems that could be attributed to fuel . the other thought iv had is this ; i do have about 5 ' of line that is exposed to the sun. when the boat is outside and uncovered which over time is alot of hours. my concern is this , the sun wrecks paint over time , it dry rots tires from the inside out , will fade and crack auto interiors , cause skin cancer if left unprotected. I just wonder if it has any bearing on the fuel line issues many have expierienced, which seems to be the major complaint about ethanol. i still am concerned about the deterioration of the metals in our motors over the long haul.