---

Another thread brought this topic to mind. I've been using E10 gasoline exclusively for more than four years now. I've got three boats, all of which are trailered and all of them are refueled at gas stations. Rarely do I ever get fuel at a marina.

Now I'm well aware of the corrosive qualities of ethanol and the havoc it can play on fuel system and engine components. The concerns which get brought up time and again which I've experienced no issues with is moisture. All of my boats have aluminum tanks and they all have external filters/separators. With one exception I'll explain, I've never drained one bit of visible moisture or separated fuel components from any of my boat's separators.

The one exception is when I refilled my little Whaler at a local marina. Within about 30 minutes of leaving the marina, I got a water in the fuel alarm and my separator was full of water. I limped back to the ramp. When I got home I ended up draining the boats tank using a home made one gallon gravity separator and drained a little more than three gallons of water from the tank and discarding the remaining gasoline. Around 20 gallons total. Having previously never had issues at all, I can only assume that day's problems were the result of pumping contaminated gasoline from that marina.

My boats are stored outside but covered. Because I have three boats, they sometimes sit for months at a time between use. I don't make any effort to top off the tanks or empty them after use. I only use Marine Stabil.

Anyone familiar with Florida knows the high humidity we have to deal with. It would seem to be a nightmare with gasoline containing ethanol. However I still have yet to detect any separated water or ethanol from any of my boats and I have trouble believing its just been good luck.

---

Same boat Johnny, been using Racetrac in my Outrage and do filter before going into tank and treating with regular stabil every time. I do check often the fuel hoses and the metal fittings and yes I do have a Racor with the "clear" bowl. So far so good after few years. Good luck?? HMMMM Like you I am in S.Fla. and cover the boat and the use is minnimal now days at $3.699/ gal. KWIK KNOCK ON WOOD!!!!

---

I consider myself rather well read on the subject of Ethanol. Keep in mind this is just my opinion and I don't honestly care if others might differ.

The one fact that is indisputable is that E10 in our fuel has done nothing but enrich the farmers via subsidies and the refiners with new markets. It has not reduced emissions to any true degree and might even be worse than the straight fossil fuels of the past. The small engine industry hates the stuff and none of our engines until recently were ever designed to burn alcohol. Most of the problems being seen by auto mechanics can be directly traced to E10 fuel and the fact that unburnt byproducts are clogging the sensors and causing "Check Engine" lights to come on. With our boats and particularly the older engines we are well aware that alcohol attacks the fuel lines and various tanks as well as many of the older rubber parts in our carburetors. Engines that are E10 compliant are a very recent addition and the vast majority of boats are not fully E10 compliant.

Alcohol does in fact attract water! E 10 has clearly been shown to break down and separate in tanks and there is no disputing this.

The question remains. If it is not cheaper, if it does not burn cleaner or give us better fuel economy and if the Pro's are outweighed by the Con's then what real purpose does it serve? The process involved to produce E 10 has many hidden costs that most of us don't wish to even consider. Corn feeds livestock and many of the animals we eat. Corn produces the milk and cheeses we eat. We eat lots of corn and corn is twice as expensive now because of Ethanol. Our grocery bills are through the roof and today they sell corn on the cob by the ear rather than by the dozen as in years past. This nation continues to be very dependent on foreign oil imports and Ethanol has done little to curb this.

Junk science is leading the way as in other issues in recent times. Any way you look at Ethanol there is very little defensible benefits from it. Only those with their heads in the OZONE layer continue to support this failed experiment and I am certain we will hear from some right here. All I can ask is to prove to me how the increased costs have been a benefit. Please tell me that the cities in this nation with the biggest smog problems have cleaner air today and less smog. Please tell my that identical cars, one burning E 10 and the other burning real gas will get the same economy or better yet the E 10 car will get better. MBTE was a disaster in and of itself and we don't yet know what the long term effect of ethanol will prove to be. Stale fuel in our tanks is never a good thing but if the fuel is E 10 it will be stale a lot faster.

---

X2 Gamalot
Zap

---

On a typical, humid summer day, take some E10 and put it into an open, glass jar, and leave it on the dock. Come back in an hour, or less, the jar will look like you filled it with skim milk. Can't be a good thing.

I do use sta-bil marine, which may be what is allowing the gasoline and water to mix, and it's this mixture that is turning white, thus no water ever seems to show up in the bottom of the glass, or in the bottom of my fuel filter bowl, thus a good thing.

---

lol, I almost feel bad Gamalot made that much of an effort to post what I think most of us have heard repeatedly. Don't get me wrong, I agree. However most of that wasn't why I initiated this topic. I was simply relaying my personal experience as far as the moisture issue. For me it hasn't been an issue and I'm not making a lot of effort to avoid it other than continuing to enjoy myself on the water.

---

I agree with all points made by all parties.

---

I don't make things a concern if I have to deal with them. E10 or not. I make sure my rigs are ready for anything.

---

Too bad they don't make fuel tanks out of clear glass so you could actually see what is going on in them!

Water goes directly to the bottom of your fuel tank and most of us stay on top of our fuel supply and rarely ever dump our tanks so we can see what is really in there.

Fill up 2 clear glass gallon wine jugs, one with E 10 and the other with real gas if you can find it. Punch a small hole in the metal lids and leave both jugs in your shed for a month. Keep checking them because the E 10 jug just might over flow.

---

E10 is pure crap and I totally agree with Gamalot. As a high performance engine mechanic on the side, he nailed the issues I've dealt with.

---

Actually the E10 evaporates a little faster. we've done the experiment at work using one gallon pickle jars with holes punched in the lids. After about four weeks both samples had paled a bit but neither was milky.

I wish my tanks had sumps and a bottom drain. It would make me feel better to be able to check by draining from the bottom of the tank. Removing the fuel sender and siphoning from the bottom with rigid tubing is a PIA.

---

My shed is dark with a damp dirt floor all the time and I get much different results. The real gas stays pretty much yellow while the E 10 turns milky very quick and I have never seen any evaporation which tells me the alcohol is being replaced by water. Alcohol does evaporate.

---

If anyone seems to think they are getting moisture from E10 and don't have a water/fuel separator than they are foolish to say the least.

---

i just replaced a 1992 24 gallon aluminum tank that was eaten up from E10... It's just a matter of time...

---

I've been using E10 with my 2 cycle 1986 Yamaha for many years and there has never been a problem at all. Also, I am not using a water/fuel separator.

---

I am sure I said this right here, "Only those with their heads in the OZONE layer continue to support this failed experiment and I am certain we will hear from some right here."

Now my only question to you is, have you been using E 10 by choice or because it is all you can find? There is not one sane individual here who would go out of their way to buy E 10 fuel if real gas was still available. Where am I wrong with this?????

---

All I can find. My main point is not about the politics of using E10, only that as far as I am concerned, it has not affected the performance of my engine.

---

E-10 has affected all my motors with less power and mileage.

I've had to replace the fuel lines as a result of the ethanol.

---

if u can find pure gas on this site then make the trip !!!

http://pure-gas.org/index.jsp?stateprov=MS

---

Absolutely wrong Geo. E 10 is documented to be at least 20% less efficient than real gas and efficiency is a major part of performance. I am perfectly fine when others say they have not noticed water in the gas issues. Not so fine when they claim their engines perform just as well because it just aint so!

We can argue this till we are blue in the face but no one can give us any positive benefits from switching to Ethanol. It is a failed experiment and the sooner we force it's demise the better off we all will be. This is not politics, just stupidity and we are following those who stand to gain the most. It has done nothing but cost us all a lot more of our motoring and boating cash. I am also rather fond of steak, milk, eggs and cheese--------All produced by the corn going in to my tanks!

---

Good luck with this! "Federal Regulations" are putting them all out of business and don't be surprised when you make the trip to find no real gas.

I just clicked on NY and almost every place that still claims to have real gas is either an Indian reservation or a marina. What might that tell us?

---

I regularly run E-10 in my jet boat as it's the only crap I can get around here. However when I run it in Oklahoma and use their "real gas" I pick up 3-4 mph on the top end and also notice much better throttle response as well.

---

My bowler hat is starting to get itchy!

---

Its too bad this topic seems to have gotten a bit argumentative so quickly. I was simply posting my personal experience. We've all heard and read the rhetoric about ethanol the last few years. None of it that has been posted here is new.

I do my own annual pm on my boats which includes draining a couple gallons from the bottom of the tanks and inspecting them with a camera the last few years. None of my tanks show any signs of corrosion including my 21 year old Whaler.

I've enjoyed better reliability the last few years than any of the previous 30 years of boat ownership. However I also attribute that reliability to the modern fuel systems of today's motors. Gosh knows I don't miss rebuilding carbs every few seasons.

Folks had marine fuel system issues long before E10. I've seen corroded tanks before E10. I've seen water come out of tanks before E10, I've seen badly deteriorated fuel lines before E10. The difference today is, anytime any of those issues crop up now, its always ethanol's fault.

I think most reasonable people believe ethanol in our fuel isn't a good thing. My point of starting this topic was that I haven't experienced the doom and gloom a lot of folks like to preach every time ethanol gets mentioned and its not because I haven't been on the lookout for it.

Get ready, E15 is around the corner.

---

Thats too bad. I have found it reliable in MS. Maybe you need to move to a state with fewer liberals... ; )

---

If discussing our own personal experiences and opinions is considered to be "Argumentative" then what's the need to have open forums?

I enjoy hearing from others who have had good experiences with particular products but this is not how I base my decisions as to if I shall buy them.

I would highly prefer to have the real gas from days past and to stop all this uncertainty. Just because something is claimed to be "New & Improved" does not make it so.

There are 3 sides to every story and somewhere in the middle lies the truth!

---

Gamolt I don't think anyone is asking you to base your own decisions on what is posted in this thread.

Bring back tetraethyl lead I say! lol

---

Whats really amazing is the fed gov. demanding more mpg from cars, trucks (light duty and heavyduty rating), boats and raising the ethanol in gas, to E15, which diminishes the goal mpg numbers the feds are looking for. 2012 guys, 2012!! Let me add to my earlier post, when I do buy gas it is in the late afternoon only and treat the fuel before putting into the jugs. Don't take boat to gas station, too many people not paying attention these days and don't want to be rear ended. I use a filter funnel when decanting into the boats tank. Reason that I only take fuel in late afternoon is a lesson learned with diesel trucks in the past and geting water in the morrning fuel ups. I use the regular red sta-bil all the time and so far this ritual has worked for me,so far. I would love REAL gas again, for my engines. I have seen first hand the effects of this stuff thats being shoved at us with the various lawn mowers,trimmers,generators etc. 2012 guys, 2012!!

---

Anyone against ethenol is delirious. It's here. Just do you maintenance.

---

I've been delirious for a few years now and ethanol is just a small part of it. I do hope to get some relief in 2012.

I am still waiting to hear someone tell us what the real benefits of ethanol are. Just some simple stuff will do like does your engine run better or cleaner? Can you go further on less? Is it saving us any cash? Will our engines run for longer? Have we saved the planet yet? Do all the tractors that tend the fields to grow all this additional corn run on ethanol fuel? Is Al Gore your Uncle Al? If everything that comes out of Washington DC is so good for us then why are we in such dyer straights right now?

The fuels we burn in our motors has a heck of a lot more to do with politics than anything related to our boating pleasures and I still have not heard from anyone here about how great the ethanol being shoved down our tanks really is. I've been involved with internal combustion engines for nearly 50 years and the fuels we use in them have been a political pawn right along. Those of us old enough will remember back when AMMOCO White gas was the only fuel to use in our outboard motors. Why is unleaded gas more expensive than leaded gas? It is not like they have to take the lead out!

---

there r none... it links the price of corn to the price of oil which is stupid and dangerous for places in the world on the brink of starvation... it also eats plastic and aluminum...
i always try to but pure gas when I can...

---

Possibly, you have not experienced anything you had to replace, yet; however, you have at least experienced a loss of efficiency. That is documented.
10% to 20% loss.
10 gallons == 9 or even 8 gallons.
You are throwing away $4.00 to $10.00 each 10 gallons. Not including the increased cost at the fuel pump and the tax pump! Maybe $1.00/G.

That problem, you have experienced!


Glass containers might really be the answer.
Each tank, new and middle age, that I use, has a seal, hose, gasket, or something that has swelled. These things did not happen previously in any notable frequency. Fuel valve on small outboard, vents on 6 gallon tanks, gaskets on weed eater, etc.

Products Designed For Alcohol!
This too is an easy knee jerk term. In the fuel system, there will always be something that did not make the cut.
With Everything being imported, we will never know what it really is made of.

The costs of these problems, you have encountered!

This all would not bother me much if it only applied to you; however the total loss/cost/etc is huge and unnecessary, and is another tax on our economy.

Good Luck.

---

Ethanol "enhanced" fuel cost me $100's more per year ti use without any additional gain for my extra $$.

Wezie, well said brother. Thank you for your wisdom.

---

10-20% loss with E10? From what source does that information come? It is dramatically different from the 3-4% difference I documented with my own vehicle on a long summer vacation taking my family out west a few years ago. Now E85, that was closer to a 20% loss.

---

Lots of newspapers/websites have already told you. There are two benefits. 1) Where oxygenates are required to reduce smog, ethanol is less bad then MTBE. 2) Adding it to the fuel of the other 98% of the country as well, increases profits of ADM, Monsanto, Dupont, ethanol plant investors, etc. It also wins votes in the Iowa Primary.

That said, I haven't experienced any issues other than a loss of mileage in any of my engines.

---

this discounts the energy required to produce ethanol...

---

I refuse to waste my time posting links that no one will read but here is just one from the many thousands easily found by searching "The truth about Ethanol".

http://www.ucsusa.org/clean_vehicles/technologies_and_fuels/biofuels/the-truth-about-ethanol.html

Keep in mind always that we must sift through the tons written on this subject and then make our own decisions as to who or what to believe. For as many Scientists that claim the advantages we can easily find as many who write about the disadvantages. Kind of shoots Science right in the foot don't we think!

Do your own search and believe what you want after you spend some time reading. I have been repairing all my engines since Engine man school in 1970 courtesy of the USN. This does not make me an expert by any stretch but as far as I am concerned Ethanol is enriching many but not many here and it has not done one dam thing to reduce the junk in our air, just different junk that we need to study further. If your motors could speak I am absolutely certain they would say Ethanol tastes like $hit.

---

Well, as I understand the problem, ethanol has about 50% of the energy of pure gasoline. If that's true, and I fill up with 20 gallons of E10 I'm buying two gallons of ethanol which provides the energy of one gallon of gas. In other words I'm buying 20 gallons but only getting the energy equivalent of 19. That should work out to a loss of about 5% in gas mileage. E15 just compounds the problem, you'll lose about 7.5%.

In dollars, I'm subsidizing the ethanol industry about $4 for each 20 gallons of E10 and $6 for E15.

---

Your math is similar to the math used in DC. SO, how much more are you paying for the food on your table as a direct result from the corn going to your tanks instead of to your table?

There is one real reason why we have not yet gone to E-15, our engines are not yet ready to handle all the garbage! Years more of testing and studies will be required before we can go to higher Ethanol levels in our fuel and they are not even close to the real-------Honest---------Truth about E-10 and it's effects.

For every action there is an equal and opposite re-action! Do any of us honestly know the truth about ethanol? We cannot trust the scientists and we sure can't trust the politicians but I truly believe if we all had a choice at the pumps between real gas and ethanol laced fuel, the vast majority here would buy corn to eat!

---

The only thing we can do Gam is vote the idiots out of office that are for this ethanol crap. Pure gas is the only way to go and in actuality is better for the environment.

---

They're not idiots. Don't underestimate them. Follow the money. Billions in subsidies for the ethanol industry. Millions in "contributions" to politicians. If you don't have the big bucks you don't get to play. The game's over. We lost. Get ready for more of the same.

---

Ethanol and this discussion is at the very bottom of the list of reasons for voting these IDIOTS out although I do agree.

I do know we should never resort to politics or religion here at WC but enough is enough and I can't afford 4 more years of this lunacy and I doubt there are many here who can!

I could easily have my vintage Montauk in the water right now all finished and looking great but I can't afford to do it and it would not be worth half of what it should be if I did.

Back to the dam barn until these fools are gone! Maybe Algeria will take them along with Quadafi.

So sorry but also so sad at all of this in my life time. If we continue to elect fools what does that make us?

---

Let's get back to question and put the politics on the shelf.

While we now know about the ethanol's reaction to the resin an fiberglass fuel tanks as well as degradation of some rubber materials (i.e. Verado FSM diaphragm) there has been blame for other problems.

An aquaintance, let's call him Mr. A, claimed that E-10 caused his engine to "blow". There was no clear diagnosis and proof.

It could be he had old gas, ran without a water separator filter, or had an underlying problem. It was a late 80's Yamaha 130.

I personally ran a 25 yr old motor on E-10 for 200 hrs and never had a problem.

It's hard to tell sometimes without some hard facts.

---

"Let's get back to question and put the politics on the shelf."

I will agree 100% here at a boating forum Phil but let us never lose sight that herein lies the problems with all of this. When we all put politics on the shelf we get what we deserve and this is the last word I will say about Ethanol and all this foolishness.

---

This topic has gotten very political and has no bussiness here.

---

What is pure gas? Gasoline formulations have been a moving target for decades. What about the additions of liquid butane during the cooler seasons? Anyone realize it even happens and the effect on potential energy per a given unit? Big surprise, the gasoline you buy in the dead of winter likely isn't the same formulation you buy in the summer.

---

I suppose I may have missed something but the link you posted has nothing related to the quotes in your post. specifically about the efficiency difference between ethanol blended gasoline and non-ethanol blended gasoline.

---

I'm no supporter of ethanol. but purely on a BTU per gallon basis, using E10 will result in a 5% loss of efficiency. Using E15 will result in a loss of 7.5%. That's because a gallon of ethanol contains about 50% of the energy of a gallon of gasoline. Do the math yourself.

---

What other metal was in the tank or touching the exterior of the tank?

---

Just came across this discussion and have to add my two cents. I have owned outboard powered boats for 25+ years, and owned Force, Mercury and Yamaha 70-200 HP motors. Had my share of mechanical issues over the years, but NEVER had gas gel in the carbs until ethonal was introduced. Since then I have spent well over $1000 just in having my carbs removed,cleaned and reassembled on my 115 and 200 Yamaha two strokes. So far the 115 Yamaha 4-stroke with fuel injection has not had the issue. In March I decided to replace the squeeze ball on that boat, and when I purchased the new one the sales person said "you too huh?". When I asked what he meant, he said that they had sold dozens of new squeeze balls as people found that they had disolved from the inside out over the winter. Then in July on another boat my squeeze ball disolved one night and since it was lower than the above deck tank it siphoned 15 gallons of fuel which was filling my 16'6" to about 6" deep the next morning. Thankfully I have no bilge pump or it would have ended up in the creek.
The mechanic that has done my carbs the last two times has been in business 30+ years [father/son and totally honest]. They tell me that over half their work is ethonal related. Finally, I use stabalizer all the time and disconnect the fuel line now and let the motor run out of fuel if I am not going to use the motor for a while.
I recently purchased non ethonal fuel for my chain saws and 9.9 Yamaha. I will be interested to see how it stores. I paid 20 cents a gallon extra for that gas and would do so all the time as it would ultimately save money. Bottom line: If ethonal is so great, 1. Why are we subsidizing it? 2. Why are we not allowed to choose whether or not to purchase it?
Since it is the government that has mandated these issues, and government is politicians and their decisions that require certain behaviors and actions by us, it is inevitable that this discussion will involve politics.

---

Well said mtown!!

Just yesterday I had to remove, disassemble, clean and reassemble a brand new (Dec '10) Holley 850 DP carburetor because of this ethanol crap. My fuel lines are deteriorating (only 8 months old) and where do you think the particles end up?? Yep, clogging my jets in the carb. What a mess.

Ethanol is NOT here to stay and we will see it phased out just like other failed substances that have been added to our fuels.

---

If it's not Ethenol it will be something else.

---

r we still talking about this ?

ethanol bad... (unless on the rocks...)
gas good... (don't drink it !)

---

lol, good summarization.

---

LOL x2!

My personal experience in my two boats and all my neighbors boats (we all live right on the water and boat year around) with E10 gas is having to replace fuel lines with alcohol proof rubber hoses (this was a 1 time cost) and the fuel primer bulbs once a year added tou our list of annual maintenance items. What happens is that the ethanol acts as a solvent and lifts the goo in the bottom of the tanks and this clogs the check valve in the primer bulb. We all have fuel water separators (except my 13 sport), run Stabil or Star Tron and use addtional fuel additives (like Ring Free, Techron, B12 Chem Tool, Sea Foam) in our fuel tanks.

We have no choice in getting E10 or not, as we are in a 'non-attainment' area for EPA Air Quality Standards. Gasoline is indeed formulated different for the region you live in and the time of year, which also contributes significantly to the varying of a price per gallon before your state and fed govt tax the heck out of it.