|
Repowering a Montauk 17 - thoughts?
|
| nyc511 |
Posted on 08/11/14 - 8:06 AM
|
Member
Posts: 50
Comments:
0
Joined: 04/21/09
|
I may need to repower my 1998 Montauk 17 as I am having little luck with my current Johnson as discussed in another thread.
Seems that the only 2 realistic options are the Etec 90 or the Yamaha 70 because of weight/hp considerations. A little dismayed as i would think that there would be more options for a 17' center console out there since it has to be a pretty common boat. Am i missing something?
I have found an Evinrude dealer that verbally quoted "around 10" all in, and the same for a Yamaha dealer, but both seem a little "fly by night," if you know what I mean. I got 12k from a reputable local dealer that was specific, and the bulk of the difference was the install at about $1200. The others would require me getting a trailer, a hitch put on my car, and/or hiring somebody to transport.
Not surprising, but the Evinrude guy sings the praises of the ETec and lashes out and the extra expenses associated with a four stroke, not to mention the under powering, and the Yamaha guy says the etec technology almost sank Evinrude/Johnson to begin with, not to mention that they are coming out with something new to correct the old, and it is ugly as s--t.
People I have spoken to with the Etecs love them, but, with the exception of newer Whalers with Mercs, about 80% of what I see on the water are Yamahas. I see very few Etecs, and near or no Hondas, Suzukis or anything else. Should I be reading into that? Anybody having a similar experience?
|
| |
|
|
| Phil T |
Posted on 08/11/14 - 9:11 AM
|
Administrator
Personal Page
Personal Album
Project Albums
Posts: 7043
Comments:
6
Joined: 03/26/05
|
Today, almost every 70 or 90 hp engine will be a good choice. Re-powering has come down to 2 points. Price and service.
Here is the list of choices:
http://www.whalercentral.com/articles...ticle_id=5
Most dealers will quote a set price with no details so comparing deals is impossible. Quotes are meaningless w/o details.
I tell everyone, get a detailed quote. If a dealer will not provide it, move on. It's a LOT of money and they should take you seriously.
The quote should have a separate line with detailed price and tax for:
New Engine w/serial #
Main harness (s) Part #'s
Throttle
Gauges (details and price for each item)
Prop (detailed make/model and size)
Charge to remove exisiting
Charge to install, and adjust after water test
If you are near NYC, look at dealers 60+ miles away for better pricing.
|
| |
|
|
| Silentpardner |
Posted on 08/11/14 - 2:57 PM
|
Member
Personal Page
Posts: 593
Comments:
1
Joined: 06/12/11
|
I have bought several new engines from dealers very recently. No dealer is going to just "give you" quotes on the specifics that Phil has listed. You still need them to compare prices. Here is how to do this, from my experience.
First, you will not get the serial number of the engine on any paperwork until you actually make the deal, so don't worry about this. The first place you will see a serial number will be on the actual invoice, and this is ok.
You will have to do some work right now to get the quote you want. Go to the Yamaha site and find the riggers catalog, and find the part numbers for everything you actually want rigged with your engine. It is all there, and you will soon understand why you can't get more than a ballpark number right now when you ask for a general quote. There are several types of gauges and controls, for example, that could be used with a Yamaha F-70. Do you need tilt and trim on your engine? You have to decide which options you want, if you expect a detailed quote, not the dealer.
Do all this with the E-tec 90 rigging guide as well, if you still do not know if you want one of these instead of a Yamaha.
Once you have completed your research, then submit your detailed choices to all the dealers you can for each engine brand you want a quote from, including a few at the outer limits of your purchasing area.
A dealer cannot give you a precise quote without knowing what you want precisely. If a dealer is giving you an exact number right now without asking you for more detail about what you want than what you have posted on this site, I would run from that dealer as fast as possible. There is no way this can be done accurately.
Edited by Silentpardner on 08/11/14 - 3:03 PM |
| |
|
|
| Silentpardner |
Posted on 08/11/14 - 5:21 PM
|
Member
Personal Page
Posts: 593
Comments:
1
Joined: 06/12/11
|
Oh, and yeah, your missing Tohatsu and Suzuki....for a couple of brands, and Mercury as well. Finnegan even suggested a particular Mercury to you in the other thread to look at, but I see you didn't seem to notice. I can assure you he knows what he is talking about, and he doesn't type that stuff in replies without serious thought. Boston Whaler actually uses the Mercury today.
|
| |
|
|
| Joe Kriz |
Posted on 08/11/14 - 5:40 PM
|
Site Owner
Personal Page
Personal Album
Photo Albums
Project Albums
Posts: 11447
Comments:
452
Joined: 03/18/05
|
A little dismayed as i would think that there would be more options for a 17' center console out there since it has to be a pretty common boat. Am i missing something?
Almost all engines today have gained significant weight due to Emissions, etc.
Almost all motors today weigh more then they used to.
I am looking at buying another Montauk with an older motor.
My choice of new motors is probably going to be the Yamaha F70 @257 pounds.
My prior Montauk I owned for 15 years had a 1985 Evinrude 70hp on it that weighed 248 pounds.
I don't know of any other motor that weighs almost the same as the older motors of the same HP as the Yamaha F70.
I was quite satisfied 90% of the time with a 70hp motor on this Montauk. I even skied behind it on a single ski.
For those that want a 90hp motor, the choice is up to you in the list Phil gave you above.
|
| |
|
|
| gchuba |
Posted on 08/11/14 - 6:02 PM
|
Member
Posts: 1675
Comments:
0
Joined: 03/31/13
|
I am in the camp of dealers coming up with written proposals. I think it unfair to the consumer (average layman) to design their instrument panels, wiring configurations, etc... unless they choose to do so. It is the dealerships responsibility to know what they are doing and come up with a line item breakdown. They should include modifications and possible extra's that the purchaser may want. That way the consumer has a hard copy choice of which way to go. They dealer is selling support and professionalism.
Pricing these motors is not rocket science. You go in with a horse power in mind, size of boat, some ideas and feedback from the "peanut gallery" we call a forum (I mean this reference in an endearing way) and let them sell you their product. "Should be around..." does not cut it unless you are asking for a rough price. Let them know you are a responsible and sincere buyer. They will become (or should become) a responsible and sincere dealer. $11,000 is not chump change. One way to ask "... I am buying a new motor for my 17' Whaler. What is your itemized out the door price. I am also looking at x, y, z, motors. What is your best deal and I will make a choice...". Let them come up with hard copies so you can make an educated and informed decision.
I have to do proposals in my business all the time. It gives my clients a chance to meet me and understand exactly what they are getting for the price. The lowest price does not always get the job.
Garris
|
| |
|
|
| Weatherly |
Posted on 08/12/14 - 3:27 AM
|
Member
Posts: 752
Comments:
4
Joined: 12/31/06
|
I have received quotes via email attachments from my local Evinrude dealer that contained detailed pricing information. A 2014 Evinrude E-Tec 90 DPLAB cost $7550. The rigging equipment cost $277 (harness, tach, binnacle was no charge due to Evinrude promotion). A 5 year warranty is applied. An aluminium propeller cost $159; a gallon of oil cost $38. The total was $7827. The labor for rigging was extra; a first start and sea trial was quoted as $150; and sales tax in MA is 6.25 percent.
I received quotes for three different Evinrude E-Tec outboard motors: the E-Tec 60, E-tec 75, and the E-Tec 90. I decided to install an Evinrude E-Tec 60 hp on the 1989 Boston Whaler 17 Custom (with a Boston Whaler factory specification Eastport mahogany interior). I posted performance numbers in a separate WC forum. The E-Tec 60 cost $5995.
Edited by Weatherly on 08/12/14 - 3:39 AM |
| |
|
|
| nyc511 |
Posted on 08/12/14 - 10:06 AM
|
Member
Posts: 50
Comments:
0
Joined: 04/21/09
|
Sorry Silentpardner, but I don't see anything from Finnegan in any of my recent post; could you direct me? Thanks!
|
| |
|
|
| jvz |
Posted on 08/12/14 - 10:25 AM
|
Member
Personal Page
Posts: 215
Comments:
10
Joined: 03/16/07
|
We always had a Yamaha 90 on the Montauk's - You will want the 90
when you have passengers and gear on board...
As you mentioned..80% of what you see is Yamaha..If you travel the world..that observation holds true,you will see Yamaha & Honda everywhere.
I just returned from Newport and had the pleasure of pioting a friends tender - a 228 Edgewater with a 2014 Yamaha 250 - It was pure bliss!!!
Do your research and you will find the deals, it does not have to be a 2014...go back 5 years..and work your way up..it's still going to be "new to you" and better than what you have.
|
| |
|
|
| PFSquan |
Posted on 08/12/14 - 12:49 PM
|
Member
Posts: 13
Comments:
0
Joined: 04/04/06
|
My current 1985 Montauk has a 2004 Yamaha 90 two-stroke, which was a replacement for the original 1985 Yamaha 90 two-stroke, which came with the original package. The 1985 motor is still running.
However before this boat I had a Tashmoo, an adorable 17 Whaler that I bought with a 1973 Johnson (weight about 335 lbs.) Years ago when I wrote for a boating magazine, I would get a different motor on my Tashmoo and use it as a test engine. These included a two-stroke 85 Suzuki, an excellent motor that provided a top speed of 36 knots, a 45 hp four-stroke Honda, (the first year it came out) good for 30 knot top end, and a 70 hp two-stroke Tohatsu that hit 34 knots.
I live in Brielle, NJ and usually spend most of my time out in the ocean passing through Manasquan Inlet. And while I am in the ocean, I find very, very few days that I can use all of the power of the 90 hp Yamaha. Tohatsu is the oldest outboard motor manufacturer in Japan. I know they are not as common as the Evinrude or the Yamaha, but it is a good, strong motor. The 70 had better efficiency than the 90, so I wouldn't hesitate to take a two-stroke 70 Yamaha for a Montauk. But have you ever looked into Tohatsu?
|
| |
|
|
| HBeric |
Posted on 08/12/14 - 9:09 PM
|
Member
Posts: 18
Comments:
0
Joined: 05/10/14
|
After doing quite a bit of my own research, I recently put a deposit down on a new Tohatsu 90 for my 17' Montauk. Considering the relatively low weight, the competitive pricing that includes controls, gauges, prop, etc., the 5 year warranty, and the fact that I am still kind of partial to two-strokes, the Tohatsu made the most sense to me.
I have another couple of weeks before I get my boat back rigged and ready to go, but once I do, I will let you know what I think of the new motor. Coming off the 50hp Suzuki that previously topped my boat out at 26 mph, the Tohatsu will probably feel like rocket propulsion - hopefully similar to the 1991 Yamaha 90 that was originally on my boat (the best motor I have ever owned).
|
| |
|
|
| Whalerbob |
Posted on 08/13/14 - 6:31 PM
|
Member
Personal Page
Posts: 311
Comments:
0
Joined: 12/07/06
|
I have a 1989 Montauk with a 1998 Yamaha 2 stroke and I'm very pleased overall with the weight and performance. If I were to re power tomorrow I'd probably go with the Yamaha F70 because it's the same weight as the older 90, mainly because I also have an older Yamaha F6 kicker @85 lbs so weight is a big issue for me and the improved fuel economy would improve my range (i regularly carry extra fuel on long trips). Without the kicker I'd probably go with the ETec 90 because I like the speed and usually have a lot of gear.
For now I'm going to try to nurse my current motor as long as possible until they come out with a new 90 in the same weight range as what I have. I understand that might not be an option for you but if you can gimp along until next spring you may have more options available then.
|
| |
|
|
| Grady95 |
Posted on 08/14/14 - 6:41 AM
|
Member
Personal Page
Posts: 198
Comments:
0
Joined: 11/03/07
|
I've done this 3 times! 1975, 1977 and 1985 Montauks. I put 90 HP E Tec motors on all of them. Every one of them is an absolute joy to pilot. The weights on these motors is perfect for the Montauks.
Remember, price is soon forgotten, quality is never forgotten! Pay for a good motor! You won't ever be sorry.
Grady
|
| |
|
|
| mfontaine2008 |
Posted on 08/14/14 - 8:43 AM
|
Member
Personal Page
Posts: 3
Comments:
2
Joined: 02/29/12
|
I just re-powered my 17' Montauk with a 90hp 2014 Etec. Cost out the door was $10,108 and worth every penny. I received $2000 for my old motor (70hp Yamaha 2 stroke)
|
| |
|
|
| gchuba |
Posted on 08/14/14 - 8:52 AM
|
Member
Posts: 1675
Comments:
0
Joined: 03/31/13
|
mfontaine, off the subject but "Hey neighbor!", I recognize Spud Point in your picture. When my boat makes it back into the water I will be at Masons. Feel free to email me from membership profile.
Garris
|
| |
|
|
| nyc511 |
Posted on 08/15/14 - 8:39 AM
|
Member
Posts: 50
Comments:
0
Joined: 04/21/09
|
Whalerbob wrote:
For now I'm going to try to nurse my current motor as long as possible until they come out with a new 90 in the same weight range as what I have. I understand that might not be an option for you but if you can gimp along until next spring you may have more options available then.
Whalerbob, You kinda hit a chord in the back of my head: if for the sake of 5hp, Yamaha was able to drop nearly 80 lbs in weight from the 90/75hp class to the F70, then it's gotta be only a question of time before they can figure out a way to add another 10 or 20 hp back in without too much weight. They say that when you buy the "newest" iPhone, Apple already has two new designs ready to go to market - they're just waiting for everybody to spend some money first. Yamaha is probably thinking the same thing and just sitting back and waiting. Given their market share here in the USA, they're probably not too concerned about pushing it. Perhaps I'm cynical, but if more people bought Etecs, I bet Yamaha would have a 275 lb 90 hp on the market by Christmas.
|
| |
|
|
| bradsc |
Posted on 08/16/14 - 7:40 PM
|
Member
Personal Page
Posts: 118
Comments:
0
Joined: 01/15/11
|
We just repowered our 1998 Montauk with a 70F yamaha. Had a 1998 90 2 stroke yamaha. Could not be happier. The boat performs about the same. We are getting 7.8 mpg cruising around 21 mph. Went with the command link gauges and to me it was worth the money, new shifter, wiring, key switch, cables and the 13.25x14 ss prop. Mounted it all the way up even after the dealer fought me on it. This set up is perfect! Been in the ocean twice and on the lake many times. Tried to get the prop to slip even in heavy seas and could not. Have not had wide open yet but mph is not that important to me. The motor is unbelievable quite at idle and sounds like an inboard when running. We paid $10,500 and got $2,700 for the 90. We did a great deal of research and just felt the 90f was too heavy and not worth the extra money. If you want great mpg and can live with average performance the 70f is the way to go.
Edited by bradsc on 08/16/14 - 7:43 PM |
| |
|
|
| nyc511 |
Posted on 10/01/15 - 11:39 AM
|
Member
Posts: 50
Comments:
0
Joined: 04/21/09
|
I thought I'd revive this thread just to report back. I looked at a lot of different options. Suzuki had a good warranty and a good price, but no dealer "footprint" in my area and, frankly, I would feel a little silly being, literally, the only guy on the water with one. I liked Honda's warranty and reputation - if it's good enough for the Coast Guard it should be good enough for me - but very expensive and very, very heavy, and only 1 local dealer so if any disagreement happened down the road I'd have a problem. No offense to those that went this way, but I just didn't like the feedback I was getting from people on the Etecs. There are some new Mercury products out there, but everywhere I turned and near every person I spoke to - legit pro or self-proclaimed - kept talking about the virtues of Yamaha.
I have a friend who owns a reputable boatyard in New England that sells several brands, including Yamaha. He served as my guide thru this process and told me the best price he could give me. Essentially at cost. My numbers may be a little off, but MSRP on the F70 was 9k and change; it costs him about 7400.
I got quotes from 3 well known dealerships in my area and as noted elsewhere in this thread it was hard to compare apples to apples other than the actual cost of the motor itself, but my friend reviewed them. I went with one dealer that I know socially as he was willing to give me a "demo" at cost. For those that don't know ( and I didn't) a demo in the outboard world is not like a demo in a car dealership - it's not actually used to demonstrate the product to customers, but rather is a promo that the company gives to big dealers. They get 1 or 2 motors at an additional 15% off so that increases their profit. According to my NE friend, that a dealer would use one of his demos on a F70 is a really big deal because he is losing that extra profit margin that he could get on a really big outboard sale. In fact, he would actually be losing money on this deal.
As you can gather after all this rambling, I went with the F70. It's only been about 50 hours, but other than the required servicing after 20, no problems. I did not have GPS when I had my Johnson 90, but I feel that there is very little difference in speed, maybe 5mph. On a flat water day I can get over of 35mph with a little trim work. I'm told by other Montauk owners that they can't get that with their 90s, probably because of the extra weight, perhaps? Truth be told, it's seldom a WOT day because of the chop anyway.
So for those that find themselves in need of re-powering an older Montauk I highly recommend the Yamaha F70. Now I guess I should prepare myself to hear back from the Evinrude guys out there!!
|
| |
|
|
| EJO |
Posted on 10/02/15 - 10:41 AM
|
Member
Personal Page
Posts: 669
Comments:
6
Joined: 11/25/12
|
nyc511 wrote:
So for those that find themselves in need of re-powering an older Montauk I highly recommend the Yamaha F70. Now I guess I should prepare myself to hear back from the Evinrude guys out there!!
Or the Mercury guys out there as they must not be as good a motor as the other brands. Maybe that's why Boston Whaler puts them on all their "cheap" new boats.
NOT
Sorry but I had to say this. Yes I know Mercury & Boston Whaler are divisions of Brunswick but they are stil their own entities that require to keep their names and products in high regard especially with the Whalers. When you demand that type of price your running gear must stand up to what owners want as quality.
Skipper E-J
m/v "Clumsy Cleat" a 2008 Montauk 150 |
| |
|
