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New engines have left us classic guys in a tough spot
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| AReinhart |
Posted on 05/31/15 - 2:58 PM
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I've had two whalers in my life, a 1987 11' Super Sport with a matching 20 hp PT&T Johnson on the back and currently a 1977 13' Sport with a 1997 dual carb Yamaha 40 PT. As such I've been out of the outboard game for some time now. My sailboat has an inboard and until last month, my Achilles had a trolling motor on it. Obviously, this 4 stroke phenomenon is new to me. The pro and con has been beat to death and I really don't care that much to try and decide which is truly better. It is funny though that after many years of limited outboard exposure, (a few Seahorse 6's thrown in here and there) within three weeks I own two and now have three carburator's on my bench.......anyways, on with my rant.
Let's talk about power. I routinely find myself with two people and a dog in the boat. Add 12 gallons of gasoline, required safety gear and a cooler full of man fuel and you have a loaded boat. I removed the hydro foil and had issues getting on plane. Needless to say, another is going back on. I read all the time about how guys are happily bolting on 25's and saying how great it is. From my personal experience, I wouldn't want 1 hp less than 40. Hell, 50 might be better. Unfortunately, my boat came with a non power trim Yamaha 40. Now, not knocking the yammi guys but I find myself constantly on boats.cm and Craig's looking at outboards. Generally not what someone does when they just bought a complete, restored and running boat two weeks ago....I guess you could just say I don't like having the yamaha on the back. From what I can tell and the general consensus is that the classic 13 was designed for a two stroke engine under 160 pounds or so. Good luck with that. There is no new 40 hp outboard with PT&T sold in the United States that weighs less than 210 pounds. I think my Yamaha is listed at 133 dry. Located in the aft storage compartment of my boat is th e battery, 12 gallon fuel tank and cooler....and I like it that way- out of the way and tidy. Initially, after some searching I found out Evinrude was still being sold and that they are still 2 strokes. Then the huge punch in the face, the 40 and 50 weigh in at a staggering 240 pounds. Now I've got the 20" transom but with all that weight in the back, things won't be right. If I sit on the transom, it's only 5" or so from the water...and I weigh 180. So adding a 100 lbs to the motor means something.
That pretty much leaves the older outboards as the only real option. And having said that, the Yamaha runs fine and has low hours. As much as I don't like it, it really doesn't make any sense to remove it and bolt on a just as old, johnson/evinrude. The weight of the new engines has pushed them right out of the market for me. If Evinrude or Mercury sold a lightweight 40/50 hp engine, a local dealer would be $6000 richer tomorrow morning. I guess we are such a small market that the engine manufacturers don't hear us. Maybe I'm expecting to much. Maybe I feel like we moved backwards in the under 60 category. Maybe I'm going to put this tablet down, go start my old Yamaha, and go for an evening boat ride. ;)
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| Joe Kriz |
Posted on 05/31/15 - 3:02 PM
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See our "Current Engine Choices" articles here:
http://www.whalercentral.com/articles...p?cat_id=4
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| AReinhart |
Posted on 05/31/15 - 7:34 PM
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Thanks Joe, I found that early on and it solidified my fears. After coming back in tonight I came to the conclusion that maybe not getting a new engine isn't so bad. The great thing about the older engines is that you can work on them. Properly kept up and tuned they can be just as reliable as a new engine. There was a quote I read either on here or CW that said something like "1960's tech got us to the moon and back, it can certainly reliably run a 2 cylinder outboard motor.." Might be something to that. Replacement parts for the older engines are very easy to find, thanks to ebay and the rest of the net. It all falls back on the statement "if they won't build what we need, we need to fix what we have". I think ultimately, I may find a late 80's Johnson SPL 48 and in my spare time, make it new again. Dirt cheap, easy to find parts and simple. Aftermarket T&T jackplate fixes the only real issue with the motor. It's about 188 lbs if I remember correctly. I noticed tonight that I can't fit under the steering console anyway so moving the battery there negates some of the weight difference. The extra 10 hp negates the rest.
I really wish I could lock down why I don't like my Yamaha C40. It starts easily, screams at WOT and though it idles like crappie runs and runs....Maybe it's because a classic whaler deserves an American engineered engine. When I was a kid, and first exposed to whalers, you ran one of four different outboard engines: Johnson's were the staple. Grandpa's ran Evinrude's for fishing. The racers ran Mercury and the broke people ran Chrysler.....
Those days are long gone apparently. Looking around my Marina you would think you were in Tokyo judging by all the Yamaha and Suzuki cowls in sight. Nothing inherently wrong with that I guess (no problem with Japan, the Japanese or Tokyo) but what happened? This thread was not started as a "which engine will fit best" but more as a "what happened to all my choices".... It would seem Mercury is the sole survivor and those engines are too heavy...
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| Silentpardner |
Posted on 05/31/15 - 7:50 PM
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Actually, the sole survivor would be Evinrude. Mercury still puts their motors together here, but many major components are actually made overseas, in China and Japan as I understand it. Yamaha actually used to make powerheads for them, and they may actually still be doing this! :) I am not certain, but I bet even Evinrude is outsourcing globally for some of their engine components as well.
We have lived too long for the local US economy, almost everything is globally linked nowadays. You can still get US grown produce if you use a farmer's market...
Oh, and one more thing...
My 1986 Outrage 18 was originally equipped by the dealer with a Johnson140 V4. It ran like a champion, after you got used to breathing the smoky fumes first thing in the morning after paying for the gas and oil it consumed on the last trip out. My 1989 Whaler 27FC WD was equipped originally by the dealer with a pair of Yamaha 200's that had pretty much the same problems the Johnson on the Outrage did first thing in the morning :)
I have since bit the bullet on both boats and gone to the new 4-stroke technology Yamahas, and even with the weight difference, I would NEVER go back to the original smokers that ran rough and loud originally on my transoms :) I have to actually look at the console run indicators or the cooling water discharge to tell if my motors are running or not when they are idling, and the boats don't vibrate anymore when trolling :)
Edited by Silentpardner on 05/31/15 - 8:01 PM |
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| AReinhart |
Posted on 05/31/15 - 8:14 PM
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Wow, no kidding about mercury...Evinrude is now Canadian. Bombardier or something. I think that company used to make jet ski's. My rant was the result of search for a repower down the line. I just couldn't believe how much has changed. Sailboat people live in a different world so I never paid attention to what happened within the small powerboat field. I completely understand globalization. I've lived in quite a few different countries in the last 20 years and think it's a good thing. I just couldn't believe the U.S. is essentially out of the outboard market. All in all, due to the weight issue, I guess I'm out of the market as well. This thread was totally a rant and I hoped it would spark some discussion as to why this all happened. As good as the new outboards seem to be, in regards to fuel economy, emissions and wow are they quiet, what good is that if they have become to heavy to mount on your boat??? Maybe I'm overestimating what a 240 pound engine will do to my whaler. I just don't see how a, let's say for the sake of discussion, 240 pound 40 etec will perform better than a 188 pound spl 48. Or a 166 pound Johnson 40 for that matter. That's why I said it's like we moved backwards performance wise. The guys running etec 40's on their 13's say that the lower unit sits in the water some at full lift. The skeg on my Yamaha does as well. That's what zinc and anti fouling is for. It's the lowering of the freeboard that I see as an issue. I run in some pretty heavy seas for a 13 sometimes. I need all the transom I can get! So I guess to summarize so far, the engines are too heavy and none are made in the US anymore........hmmm
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| AReinhart |
Posted on 05/31/15 - 8:16 PM
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The vibration is something I didn't think about. My Yamaha vibrates so much at idle speed my stern light moves 2" back and forth, lol.
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| butchdavis |
Posted on 06/01/15 - 6:43 AM
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According to the new Consumers Report of all cars and light trucks sold new in the US the maximum actual US content of any is 75%. I highly recommend that issue to get some good news about US manufacturing.
Although BRP is a Canadian company all the Evinrude jobs are in the US. To me that's a major plus.
Butch |
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| AReinhart |
Posted on 06/01/15 - 9:16 AM
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Butch: Yeah I guess that means something. I did a lot of reading about OMC and Mercury and it seems that they just got to complacent with what they were selling. It only takes a breakdown/rescue or two before people throw brand loyalty overboard. I mean, look what happened with Evinrude and the early lower units on their ETECS. 6 months later, pro fisherman all had Yamaha's on the back and all the amateurs soon followed suit. Maybe this highlights a larger problem that goes beyond whalers and outboards. And like Silent P said, once you experience the quiet, clean engine, you'll never go back. A friend of mine has quite Dauntless and recently repowered with a new Suzuki. It replaced an older Johnson 2 stroke. I myself actually had to look at the cooling water stream to verify it was running. He can't stop talking about how much fuel he is saving. Apparently, an unbelievable difference.
Now, I'm not one to dislike new tech. Far far from it actually. Like I said earlier, if I could buy a new 180 pound 40/50 hp remote, PT&T motor I'd buy it today. I'm retired but young so I burn a lot of gas in my boats. Personally, I don't mind the " stink in the morning" from the older outboards. It reminds me of days past when we didn't think about things like that. And as far as reliability, my 1982 Johnson 7.5 starts cold on the first pull. Every time. I'm only rebuilding the carb because that's what I always do with a new to me engine. I buy things that I want to keep for awhile and I do complete overhauls on most systems to kick off a reliable period of ownership. The 1997 Yamaha sat in a garage for 10 years, hence only having 80 hours on it. I'm sure once I rebuild those carbs it will idle fine as well.
Reading posts about 13's on this forum has also shown me that I'm not alone. A LOT of guys are still running old 2 strokes on their boats. I wonder if that would change if the manufacturers would build something we could use???
I guess I should stress for those who won't read the first few posts, some of us need 40+ hp on our 13's. Hats off to the guys who are content with a 25/30. At least the new engines in that range weigh less than 180 pounds. But load your boat up and that 25 is worthless. And to the guys who say "40 hp is even to much. I was afraid to run at WOT with it".....well, I really don't know what to say to you other than ever try sailing? :) My boat needs the 40. I fish an lnlet that is a 15 minute ride at WOT to the safety of my Marina. Storms come up quick and we are on the Ocean. I watched a few videos on Ytube that had guys running Johnson 48SPL's on their 13's. I am seriously contemplating picking one up and restoring it. That got me thinking: why are new engines so quiet? The Etec is 2 stroke and it's quiet. Did they change the exhaust? Add sound deadening material to the cowl? Anyone ever try adding high tech sound dampening material to the cowl of an older engine?
Edited by AReinhart on 06/01/15 - 9:20 AM |
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| wlagarde |
Posted on 06/01/15 - 9:51 AM
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...Anyone ever try adding high tech sound dampening material to the cowl of an older engine?
Yes - See my personal page. It did make a substantial difference.
Edited by wlagarde on 06/01/15 - 9:52 AM
1976 Sport 15 w/ 2005 50hp Nissan 2 stroke |
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| gchuba |
Posted on 06/01/15 - 10:46 AM
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Careful if you decide to fool with the exhaust. There is a symmetry to the running of motor and flow of air. Check with manufacturers what might be available. I would not attempt aftermarket.
Garris
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| wlagarde |
Posted on 06/01/15 - 11:47 AM
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Agree there is usually a stock exhaust tuner installed that should not be modified
1976 Sport 15 w/ 2005 50hp Nissan 2 stroke |
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| dgoodhue |
Posted on 06/01/15 - 11:59 AM
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I agree with you the 11 and 13 don't have any new technology motor options available for repower for max rated hp. My neighbor has an old 40 Johnson 2 stroke. The boat sit really low in the back. When you add p&t to the 48 it is going to be similar.
If speed is important, have you thought about a classic 15' ? They handle the rough water so much better than classic 13's plus they are faster when equiped with 60 & 70 up motors. The only down side is the cost and they loose some lateral stability.
Edited by dgoodhue on 06/01/15 - 12:01 PM
Dave |
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| DennisVollrath |
Posted on 06/01/15 - 1:49 PM
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Have you looked at the Tohatsu 40hp TLDI? It is #207 with tilt & trim.
1985 Outrage 18 with Suzuki DF140A |
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| Berger |
Posted on 06/01/15 - 2:10 PM
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Dgoodhue could you define what you mean by "lateral stability"?
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| AReinhart |
Posted on 06/01/15 - 3:40 PM
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Wow WLA, that is a beautiful boat. Everything has a place and is well thought out and finished. I've been involved in the full restoration of my 30' sailboat for the last three years; have a ways to go, but when it's finished, what you did is what I'm going to do to mine. It's all in the details. The dynamat or something similar is what I had in mind. I just did my wife's entire car with it and was impressed. I figured something in the cowl would help, considering that I don't think it's to loud as it is. Not whisper quiet, but not obnoxious either.
GCH, I have no intention of messing with the exhaust. It's already a through the prop type. I was just wondering what they did to make the 4 strokes and Etec so much quieter.
Dgood, I already have the yamaha 40 on the back. It weighs approx 40 pounds or so less than the SPL. Add the power trim jackplate from Bobsmachineshop, the standard series that puts the hydraulic motor inside the boat, which adds about 14 pounds to the transom. This makes about 55 pounds more than my current setup. Move my battery and cables under the console and it should balance out nicely. The additional 10hp should counter the additional 55 pounds on the boat as well. Nothing locked in, I was just exploring options.
Additionally, when I decided to buy another whaler, I considered the 11, 13 and 15. I wanted the classic sport models. I've already had an 11 and I feel like I've outgrown it for my needs. I always wanted a 15 because they fly and handle chop better. What it came down to though is fuel usage and my ability to handle the boat by myself. My 15 would have a 70 or 90 on it. That's just how I do things. I spend most of my time on the water so like I said, I burn a lot of gas. A 90 burns a lot more than a 50. It's a hole different level of boat. As is the 15 compared to the 13. I'm on one usable leg and the 13 is within my ability to move around. I got the right boat.
I think what he meant by lateral stability is the difference in how stable the boat is standing on the gunwale. The 11 and 13, with their tri hull design, are extremely stable. The 15 gives some of that up in exchange for better rough water ability.
I did see that Tohatsu. But if you look closely, it says 207*... The fine print says that is the weight of the lightest version. Being that it's available as a 15" tiller model, I can almost assure you that the 20" remote model weighs quite a bit more.
It's funny to me how everything else in the world has gotten smaller and lighter. Except our outboards.
Edited by AReinhart on 06/01/15 - 3:41 PM |
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| AReinhart |
Posted on 06/02/15 - 6:53 AM
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Northern: any reason you changed the words in that quote to "cnsuperpower.com" and "fujihd.net" ????
But yeah, agreed. Remember though that my idle circuit is gummed up. It will idle smoother once I do the carbs up. I've got two nice carbs on my bench in line for a rebuild soon. Ill basically have two sets of carbs, one always ready to bolt on when needed. Whoever gets this Yamaha after me will be getting a good motor with spares and manuals....I'm sure when I decide to sell it one day someone will appreciate that. :)
Looking further into the outboard field I learned a few things. Apparently, their is a large aftermarket in place that rebuilds and restores these older 2 strokes. Shows what I know. The cheap performance boat sector, as in those 70's vector spaceship looking boats, love the older 2 strokes. Therefore a market was created and you can even buy performance parts, reeds and such, for these engines. I didn't know that until yesterday. Basically, I can put together a 40/48/50 Johnson that will run better than it did in 1990. Do some minor sound dampening and you've got a light, powerful and reliable engine. All for less than the cost of a new 50....Looking at it another way, the boats a 1977 with varnished mahogany. A classic boat does not look out of place with a classic motor.
Back to the weight issue and the reason for my rant: why is the etec so heavy? It's still a 2 stroke made with more modern materials than an Evinrude from the 90's. Shouldn't that have resulted in a LIGHTER motor? I think I need to scour the marinas and find a 13 with a 40/50 Etec on the back. I'd like to see how they sit in the water. As you can probably tell, I'm exploring all the options here. I've ranged from restoring an old motor to exploring the new so far.
I could have sworn that whaler sold a "classic" or "retro" 13 a few years back. Not many made. But, it was during the 4 stroke revolution. What did whaler power it with? Was it still rated for 40 hp and if so, they must have considered the fact that the new 40's weigh 100 pounds or so more. Honestly, looking closely at mine, if I moved the gas tank and battery under the front seat, the 40 Etec would likely perform fine. Has BW ever commented on repowering their classics? I mean, they have to know that their boats last and by now, many people are looking to modernize the power plant.
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| Weatherly |
Posted on 06/02/15 - 9:44 AM
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There are hundreds, no maybe thousands, of Boston Whaler 13 and other length hulls here on Cape Cod. Yes, we are infested with Boston Whalers. We see all kinds of power on 13's at the dock: 15 hp to 48/50 hp. Yes, the Evinrude E-Tec 25, 30, 40 hp is a very popular outboard motor for a BW13 repower. I know a dock less than 10 miles from me where there are more than 15 individually-owned BW small boats and they are all powered by Evinrude E-Tec outboards motors. I guess people here on Cape Cod place value in the most economical, reliable, only direct injection, U.S.-Manufactured outboard you can buy with low emission (CARB 3) and less maintenance, when compared to a four stroke. And the torque is just incredible.
Edited by Weatherly on 06/02/15 - 10:25 AM |
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| wlagarde |
Posted on 06/02/15 - 6:35 PM
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ARheinhart -
Thanks for the compliment. Dynamat is impressive stuff. I think the big difference in the loudness of the new engines 2-stroke vs 4-stroke. There is a reduction in the number of combustion events by half per RPM and take away the reed valve noise.
I would still consider the Tohatsu TLDI 40 or 50. It's based upon the same engine block mine (bullet proof) is but converted from carbureted to direct injected. The difference in weight between the remote and tiller models should be relatively small.
Edited by wlagarde on 06/02/15 - 6:36 PM
1976 Sport 15 w/ 2005 50hp Nissan 2 stroke |
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| AReinhart |
Posted on 06/03/15 - 7:55 AM
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Tohatsu outboards are well known in the sailing community as well. They are cheap and reliable. It's funny, only recently have they started to gain a foothold here in the US. But, they are one of the largest and most popular outboards in the world. You can find them everywhere, from a skiff in Tahiti to a whaler in south Africa.
Nonetheless, it does seem to be the lightest engine out at the moment. Returning Full circle to my original rant; not a lot of choices.
I did find a Ytube video of a guy who bolted on a Honda 50, 2013 model, to his 89 Super Sport. He was surprised, as was I, how well it sat in the water. I guess what it's starting to come down to is weight distribution. Considering the fact that I put a 12 gallon tank in place of the 6 that came in the boat, well, that is the difference between a 2 stroke and new engine right there. I guess I need to start exploring moving the battery forward.
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| Blackduck |
Posted on 06/03/15 - 8:14 AM
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While no good for the small boats, I am very impressed with the Suzuki DF140. Power to weight, and it is really does seem to have close to all of it's rated 140 hp, despite rumors of it being weak by 10 hp or so. One of the finest running engines I have ever owned.
Walter Reynolds
1973 Boston Whaler 16 Nauset 90 HP Yamaha |
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