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Hi,

I'm getting a weary cleaning and oiling the teak every spring on my 1988 Montauk.

While the oiled teak looks "Bristol" at the beginning of each season by mid-season, IMO it looks terrible. At the advice of just about everyone here I've been using Amazon products. I don’t believe it’s the fault of their products or my prep. I think part of the problem is my using a mooring cover. I suspect it traps enough moisture underneath it to create/stimulate black mold spots on the wood.

I'm considering varnishing the wood from the RPS, to the louver doors and the anchor locker. Because of their vicinity to water (boat washing) I varnished the cooler cleats and the console feet trim. Both still look terrific after two seasons.

Anyone care to chime in and give me some insights about what I might not have thought about before I make the switch from oil to varnish?

Thanks in advance for your comments.
Matt

(moderator note: changed the abbreviated year to the full 4 digit year)

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I took a personal choice. I use Watco Teak Oil. I am basically a lazy person. The finish for varnishing the teak was too much work for me to strip. An old wood re-finisher (an old Englishman who commercially bought and sold teak) said oil it up. When it fades, scuff it up and hit it with oil. I have some louvre doors out of the sun that look beautiful two years later. I have some teak gunwale caps that faded in 3 months in the sun. I like the old look. I believe the choice is to allow for fading or do it with the gloss finish. I have some "mold spots" underneath some of my oiled teak but it cleans up easily (bait table and anchor pulpit). I like rubbing down my boat and chatting with fellows at the marina.
gchuba

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There is a 50% group all in favor for oil and the other 50% say varnish. Oil is by today's standards still the same as what was used many many many years ago. Varnish in contrast is getting better and better each year.
I'm in the Varnish group. It might take a littler long prep as to getting rid of the oil build-up before you can varnish but after you have varnished your woodwork it will stay pristine for at least 3 years or more and when using a cover you might get more time out of it. After you have made the prep and have a good undercoat surface of varnish re-varnishing doesn't take any longer then applying oil and you can still do that in the marina talking to your fellow boaters.
Just my $0.02

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At the beginning of last season, on my 1978 Montauk, I used teak oil on the RPS, console doors and bow locker cover...cleaned and sanded it all first. The mahogany pieces: cooler cleats, console cleats, and bimini cleats on the inside of the hull were all varnished w/ Interlux Schooner Gold...everything looked great!

When I pulled the boat in October, the teak was all dark and dull while the mahogany still looked great! When I take the shrink off in May, if the mahogany still looks great, I have decided to varnish the teak as well. I like the natural and stock "idea" of oiling the teak...but sanding and oiling every spring and have it look like crap come August is just not what I want.

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Pretty sure that none of the teak that ever came from the Whaler factory came varnished.

But the Mahogany that came from the factory, was always varnished.

I guess as a result, to me, teak looks funny varnished.

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That is correct from what I understand...and at first I thought I wouldn't mind maintaining the teak with oil...but I'm getting lazy and I like the wood to look good. I thought that varnished teak looked unnatural at first, but now I think that for the short amount of time that it does look good oiled (2 months?) I'd rather go with varnish to have it look good all season...maybe two seasons!

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After years of having the same experience Matt describes, and watching my teak get thinner and thinner from all the continuous sanding/oiling, I also decided to stop the craziness and "lock the thickness in" with varnish. Varnish, done properly, lasts and lasts, and always looks great. And if the surface gets a little dull, it can be buffed back to high gloss with 3M Finess-it II. Even re-coating with 2 coats, as it eventually becomes necessary, is a lot less work then the sanding/oiling cycles.

I use a teak oil based stain (Zar #120) before varnishing. This gives a slightly initial darker color, but quickly lightens in the UV. It protects the wood from UV damage, and slows no yellowing over the years.
I use Z-Spar "Flagship" varnish which has high UV inhibitor content.

I change some of the fastner details to avoid them cutting the varnish skin. I put a small fender washer under the trim ring details, and change out the countersunk oval head screws to pan head screws with a washer. The latter required drilling out the countersink in the teak 3/8" dia , installing a teak peg, and redrilling the now flush surface from the back side. This must be done before the varnish work.

Here is my all varnished 1979 Montauk:

http://smg.photobucket.com/user/lgolt...6631388007

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What would the downside be if this was not done? Meaning, what happens if the "varnish skin" gets cut?

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Once the varnish skin is cut, it starts to fail as water and moisture get under it. Often the varnish will chip right off the teak.

The sharp edges of the trim ring, as the screw is tightened down, will cut the varnish like a razor blade.
For years Whaler did this on all of the mahogany interiors, and they all have black rings around the screws where water turned the mahogany black as the surrounding urethane yellowed and failed. Countersunk oval head screws do the same thing, and break the varnish.

Even with a flat washer, you have to be careful, because if the varnish is not fully cured (about a month!) the washer, and fittings, will bond to it, and can take the varnish off with the washer when you remove the washer at any later date.

This system is not perfect, and involves a little more woodworking effort, but it has worked for me and kept my varnished teak looking nice for years. I get a lot of dockside compliments on the varnish work on my Whalers. And whatever you do, don't use Cetol!

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I use Interlux Schooner on my teak. I have found it to last a very long time especially if you keep the console and RPS covered when the boat is not in use. I just took the teak off the boat for the first time in about 3 years or so to sand it down and put a couple of new coats on. There is only a couple of corners and spots that have broken down. I will sand them well and apply some extra coats to those areas to build it up. The prep for applying varnish is the most important part. Sand sand sand... then sand more to get the grain level. I will post some pics when completed.

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So, as I see it, sanding for varnish would happen less because it's not done as often as you would with the oil? Sanding every spring is what bothers me...over time, the wood will become thinner and thinner.

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When I initially re-did my teak. I cleaned, sanded and sanded. I went with the oil. When I re oil I activate the old surface with mineral spirits (I might have to check the can but I activate with the component in the oil). I scuff it up with a nylon/plastic pad (material on backside of some dish sponges) wipe down and clean. The wood stays raised and grainy, I might hit a bad spot with some sand paper. I oil, I like the look. No "thinning" of the wood from over sanding. I also believe it would be difficult to loss enough material through sanding to make a difference. However, running the wood through a planer to remove a warp....
gchuba

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the major sanding to make it smooth is only done once, after you build up the varnish coats you will only be sanding the varnish to add maintenance over the years.

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Finnegan the washer idea is a great one. Just wish I had done that many years ago. Thanks.

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I plan to varnish my Montauk teak at some point. I really like Waterlox in my woodworking projects and they have a marine formulation that I need to test out on teak.

One thing I always wonder about when looking at Finnegan's beautiful work is how slippery is the bow locker cover? I know on my boat of all the teak it get's the most abuse and I would not want it to be slippery when wet.

Any comments on this detail?

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When I removed the fuel fill fitting and other fittings from the teak gunnel's I noticed how much teak was removed over the years. I bet the fuel fitting was sitting a good 1/16" proud of the surrounding wood. I then varnished in hopes of reducing the amount of wood removal in the future years. (1984 18' Outrage)

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I started varnishing when I discovered the same thing aericksen describes.

Wearing Sperry boat shoes, I have not noticed any problem with slippery varnish locker covers or hatch covers.

Fred - Thank you. Seeing the photos of your Revenge 25, I remember you well from the 1993 Whaler Bahamas trip. See the personal website link for photos of my Outrage 25, which I'm sure you will also remember. Those were the days! Hope all is well with you and family. Larry

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Thanks Everyone! I wish I could say I'm any closer to making a decision. Finnegan's advice makes perfect sense, but it would add more work, which I'm trying to avoid.

When I was a kid working in the boat yard we used to use a two part cleaning system that required we used gloves. I'm sure it was really bad for the environment and my health, but damn did it do an incredible job cleaning teak. I've been using Amazon's cleaner and oil for years. Anyone out there that can speak to one of these types of cleaners?

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NEVER Use those awful two-part teak cleaners. Thy will eat up your teak. If you have been using that on your teak prior to applying Amazon's Golden Teak Oil, that is a big part of your problem.

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I love reading these forums because I always feel there is something to learn. It is nice to know that with diligence you do not have to strip the varnish each time you do maintenance. I still like the oiled look and the work that goes into maintaining it. However, on the underside of my bait table (as well as the underside of my Anchor Pulpit) the mildew black spots are a "drag" to work on. A couple of other incidental hard to get at areas included. I use clorox for the mildew black and elbow grease (sometimes with some TSP) for cleaning. Always with fresh rags. Then the Mineral Spirits. Is there a sealant or varnish that is a semi-gloss or flat that could work for me? The glossy finish (as beautiful as it is to some) is not my cup of tea.
gchuba

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Tom,

I can't speak for the previous owner, and I never have used one of those two part cleaners - on this boat. And, I promise I'll never ever use a two part cleaning system. Scouts honor.

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The slip factor under wet bare feet has always kept me from considering varnish. Kids are frequently diving off the boat from the gunwales when at anchor, and though varnish would look great, it is a concern in that regard.

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I've never used any of the Amazon products so I can't comment on them. I have always uses Daly's SeaFin Teak Oil and I have never had one speck of mold or mildew on any of my teak in 30 years.

The key to any durability in a food finish is a smooth flat surface, no raised grain that will hold and harbor dirt and mildew. That is why teak cleaners are so bad. They eat out the soft grain between the hard grain and leave tiny crevices for dirt to collect in.

This is also why i recommend wet sanding any teak with teak oil to form a thin paste that will fill any pored or voids in the grain. Once that first coat is set, it can be very lightly sanded to smooth things out again and then subsequent coats can be applied.

This same series of steps with the teak oil and wet sanding should be used even if you are varnishing. It forms a good base coat and makes getting a smooth varnish coat much easier.

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Tom,
When you refer to "Wet Sanding", what grit paper? use of sanding block or finger/hand pressure? do you then let it set for a day and go back to it? I am only getting mildew on the undersides of my teak (Watco oil) from condensation (anchor pulpit, bait table). I can almost locate where my water drips are.
gchuba

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After having sanded all the teak from my Montauk 17 I've decided to go the oil route, specifically the Daly's Seafin recommended by Tom. All my teak except the anchor locker hatch is covered by canvas when the boat is not in use and it is a Michigan boat so I think a one mid-season re oiling will maintain the finish pretty well. I have a small mahogany sailboat, a CLC Skerry which has a varnished interior and that's enough work for me.

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When I wet sand I use 400 grit wet/dry paper folded and held in my hands. I wear disposable gloves and clothes that I don't care about.

Though there are no parts on Whaler large enough to justify it, I have used my large Porter Cable Random Orbital Sander, with the speed dialed down, to wet sand large pieces with. It gets messy in a hurry.

By applying teak oil and then wet sanding it, you create very fine wood dust that mixes with the oil and creates a slurry or paste that fills the open grain and other voids in the wood.

When you are done wet anding, you wipe the piece down with an oiled rag to remove all the excess paste from the surface and leave a uniform coat on to dry. It will usually be dry overnight, depending on heat and humidity.

Even when this is done as a base coat for varnish you still want to thin your first coat or two of varnish before applying it full strength.

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Tom,
Thanks for your reply. I saw that my original application method followed manufacturers specs (Watco) and differed than yours. I researched the oils and found a big difference in the types of oil. They also had different application methods and characteristics. Now that I researched I am slightly annoyed that "Watco Teak" should have been called "Watco Linseed".

An excellent article by Stephen D. Russell entitled "Tung and Linseed Oils". Part of the summation of the article included: Linseed oil offers a lack of UV protection, will get mildew. Tung oil has an increased resistance to yellowing, water and alkalies. No mildew.

I have liked the look of my Watco (Linseed) Oil. I like the application method and the easy (yet often) maintenance. However, I have removed all the accessories from the boat (downrigger mounts, stainless rails. rub rail, etc...) in prep for gel coating and waxing. Now that I have access I am changing over to Tung Oil on my teak gunwales et al. As some of the other teak parts of the boat come up, I will be sticking with the Tung.
gchuba

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Tom is talking about creating a "slurry to fill voids" You can also use Smith & Co. CPES this stuff works great as it keeps the same elasticity a the original wood fiber.
Read the web pages. Restoring my classic Chris-Crafts and Thompsons I can't recommend a better "primer" before finishing new or 'old' wood.
Read tech data and instructions at www.smithandcompany.org for the world greatest primer. (you still need to sand, sorry)

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Doing a follow up to my "Watco Teak Oil" issues. I contacted Watco (aka Rustoleum) and told them of the issues with the mold spots. I also "mentioned" I felt a little mislead by the labeling of the product. Should have been called Linseed oil for teak. They were receptive to my problems. I gave them the lot numbers of my cans (I bought 2 gallons at the same time to have matching oils later down the road). I will be sending them pictures of the pulpit and bait table stains. I also told them of my clean up method with clorox/TSP. They are considering sending me some "Power Stripper" as well as "Jomax" (a mildew killer) to help me strip/clean the wood. They are waiting until they see the pictures. They are aware of mildew issues with the Linseed based product but, the Watco Teak Oil was supposed to contain an anti mildewing agent. Will keep all posted on the progress.

I am going to keep in contact with them as far as how best to remove the Linseed oil. I am assuming I am ultimately going to do a bit of sanding. Any ideas or methods I should know about in advance for getting the Linseed off the wood. I will be using some of their recommended stuff but I would hate to miss a step and have potential for mold under a new Tung coating.

gchuba

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I am in the process of refinishing all of the wood on my 1981 Montauk 17 and decided to go with the Zar 120 stain followed by varnish. To minimize cutting into the finish, I found stainless steel flanged finish washers at a marine supply store. I thought I would use these in addition to a nylon washer. Just wondering if anyone else has tried flanged finish washers.

Having just finished using the Zar stain, the wood looks really great.

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Readers, and particularly teak "oilers", shouild be aware that all products sold as "Marine Teak Oil" contain varnish, in varying amounts by brand. I learned this in an article published 15 years ago in a boating mag, where they were testing teak oils for longevity against the elements.

They found that the more varnish the teak oil product contained, the better it lasted. This should not be a surprise. I do remember that Daly's Sea Fin teak oil contained the most varnish, at 15%, and accordingly lasted the longest.

Many of you know that spilled teak oil drips and runs get hard and yellow on the surrouding gelcoat. Varnish content is the reason, of course. The other thing we know is that one-step teak cleaners are excellent for removing dried varnish spills, from screw heads, etc. For it to clean teak, it has to remove the varnish residue.

Excess teak oil always has to wiped off 10 miutes after application, becasue if you don't the varnish in it will harden with a glossy sheen to it.

So the issue of whether to oil or varnish is really only about percentages of varnish - 100% or down to 5%-15%.

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Larry is essentially correct. Daly's SeaFin Teak Oil can be thought of as a very, very dilute form of varnish. This is why it is such a good base coat for anything that is actually going to be varnished.

Teak oil is just a phrase, not a commodity. It is not oil squeezed from Teak tress or Teak nuts. No two "Teak Oils" are the same.

You can apply however many coats of teak oil you want; the finish will continue to improve with each new coat wiped on with a rag, but it will be an entirely different looking finish from traditional varnish. It can perfectly smooth but still look hand rubbed, not painted on.

Choose the look you like best.

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Hi Tom,

If I understand you correctly, you don't apply any teak cleaners. You simply sand the dark spots out with the wet sand paper and teak oil (slurry), which also gives you the benefit of smoothing out the entire surface of the wood before applying the finish coats of oil, correct?

Thanks,

Matt

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Mattroche,
I researched my own teak oil and discovered that linseed based oil IS NOT mildew resistant without the additions of other chemicals to alter its normal characteristic. I am in contact with Watco (Rustoleum) to address this matter. Your original issue with your teak oiling complained about the "mold spots" so you may want to check the make up of the base coat on your boat before overlaying with another product. I am planning on stripping the original linseed oil on my boat so as I do not trap a product under the new coating that may mildew. I just sent pictures and left a message to Watco. I will keep all posted.
gchuba

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A follow up with my dealings with Rustoleum (Watco Teak Oil) and mildew/mold spots. They refunded my original purchase price from the retailer ($89.12) and sent me Zinsser Paint and Varnish Stripper. I documented my issues with the Teak Oil and supplied the original recent receipt for my purchase. Their research staff recommended cleaning the teak with chlorine/soap and water after stripping the original oil with Zinsser.

I am duly impressed with the actions of Rustoleum Inc.. They requested the lot number of my product (see if ongoing issue with the batch). Lent a sympathetic ear, and came through as best they could for making good on their product.

I will start the new application of Tung oil for my wood as time allows. The actions of the of the parent company took the sting out of repeating work.
gchuba