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How much truck for 25 outrage
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| bcoastal |
Posted on 10/03/15 - 7:41 PM
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I have a 1986 outrage and pull it with a 1999 chevy z71 5.3. Probably about 6500-7000. with a fully loaded with trailer. It struggles to go over 60 with a light foot. I want a truck that can pull it with no worries but not a f350. Should I go with f150 5.4, dodge 5.7, chevy 6.0 or diesel? I pull the boat 100 miles round trip about 80 times a years on a flat road. When Im not pulling the boat Im driving 20 miles round trip 180 days a year.
Edited by Joe Kriz on 10/03/15 - 7:43 PM |
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| gchuba |
Posted on 10/03/15 - 8:06 PM
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I have 2 Dodge diesels. Both one tons, one 4 wheel drive, one rear wheel drive. A very talented mechanic/machinist recommended them to me and I am so happy I listened. One is a 1996 and the other is a 1998 1/2 (the 1998 series came with two different motors). They both have the 12 valve commercial Cummings diesel motor. The last time they put the mechanical non computerized engine in a pick up. They also have the comfortable cab and suspension (pre 1994 body/suspension style pretty stiff). I highly recommend the 1994 to 1998 Dodge diesel with the 12 valve motor. Fellows know about this truck so they hold a decent resale value. Clean ones in the $10,000 + range around here (Northern CA). Do not let 200,000 miles scare you. My first one had 450,000 miles on it, since sold. 3/4 ton will be more than enough truck with a comfortable ride.
Garris
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| JRP |
Posted on 10/04/15 - 4:05 AM
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Are you planning to purchase a new vehicle, or used?
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| Doug V |
Posted on 10/04/15 - 6:31 AM
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I would say the minimum truck for that boat would be a 3/4 ton. Especially as much as you get out on the road with the boat. An F-150 would probably work, but the running gear would be near maximum. Being at the maximum capacity also means that wear and tear will be maximum as well.
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| butchdavis |
Posted on 10/04/15 - 7:14 AM
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Any late model 1/2 ton pickup, properly equipped, should handle your towing task well. I believe displacement is important for longevity when performing heavy duty tasks.
My personal preference is the Ram 1500 with the 5.7 Hemi engine and towing package. I have a 2014 and get right at 18 MPG overall mileage. Twenty MPG on the Interstate at 70 MPH is routine. I've never checked towing mileage specifically but suspect it is around 18 MPG. My tows are all on flat terrain with a lighter load than you anticipate (190 Montauk w/Verado). The truck is very comfortable with a nice ride which makes day to day driving very enjoyable. Care when towing is necessary because it is so easy to forget you have a load behind you. Drive one.
Due to the very high purchase and long term maintenance costs of diesels I can't recommend them any more except for extreme towing demands. I drove diesels exclusively for several years towing boats and heavy RVs but when the RVs went away gasoline power was on the horizon for me.
Butch |
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| bcoastal |
Posted on 10/04/15 - 7:59 AM
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I want to buy used. Looking in at 150k -250k miles. Probably stick under 10k
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| cc378 |
Posted on 10/04/15 - 9:38 AM
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My 2006 Tundra does a nice job pulling my Outrage 25 WhalerDrive on a dual axle trailer.
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| Marko888 |
Posted on 10/04/15 - 10:53 AM
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If one chooses a Tundra, it should be 2007 or newer with the 5.7L engine. Tundras are geared for towing (only one axle ratio available)... Just dont expect anything over 20mpg empty.
PS - the above notes..."for towing a 25". I have a 2011 with the 4.6L. Good truck.
Edited by Marko888 on 10/04/15 - 10:54 AM |
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| JRP |
Posted on 10/04/15 - 11:20 AM
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bcoastal wrote:
I want to buy used. Looking in at 150k -250k miles. Probably stick under 10k
Copy. Then Garris's recommendation above sounds like a good way to go.
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| Joe Emslie |
Posted on 10/04/15 - 11:52 AM
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I want to echo Garris' comments. I have a 1998 Dodge 2500 with the Cummins diesel that he mentions. It was the last pre electronic diesel and the injection pump is second to none. I have converted this diesel to run on vegetable oil / bio diesel and runs like a top and hauls my 20 foot outrage without any problems. I was fortunate to find a 2500 crew cab with suicide doors. And regrading Butch' s comments on high initial cost of diesels, they do have a high resale or trade in value.
Joe
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| Silentpardner |
Posted on 10/04/15 - 2:41 PM
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I have a 6.7L 400HP/400ft/lb torque diesel F350 and, I agree it might be overkill for your needs, but if you don't want to know your boat is back there and feel the drag, it would be the best option. I have the middle drive axle ratio in this truck, there are 3 different ratios available in the F350. It is not the lowest ratio available, (which allows more power but less top end speed, and thus reduces fuel economy), and it is not the highest ratio available either. This drive axle ratio is combined with the lowest ratio 6 speed automatic transmission included with a HD towing package.
I also have a F150 with the 302ci (5L fuel injected 365HP) engine that I think would probably be satisfactory in your application. I have used it several times to pull HD 30' gooseneck hitch flatbeds around for relocation around both the ranch and laydown yards, but I have never used that truck for these purposes at highway speeds. The above described F150 does fantastic at highway speeds with our Outage 18.
You may notice that there is only a 40 HP engine difference between the 2 pickups I am discussing here, but the GVWR of these 2 trucks is over 100% in difference.
You should not get overly concerned with GVWR on your selection once you determine that this rating is high enough to tow the weight of your boat down the highway. It makes no difference whether it is a 1/2, 3/4, or 1 ton chassis in any way other than comfortable ride. Generally speaking across ALL brands of pickups the ride will be harder as the GVWR increases in rating. Since you have already determined that your boat weighs between 6500-7000 lbs, you need to find a pickup that has a max towing capacity range to match this load. The F-150 has a max towing capacity in 2015 of 12200 lbs. Since you are looking to buy used, you would have to find out what the max towing capacity of the particular truck you are looking at actually has, as this MTC has varied through the years, and also varies between makes as well as models within the same make.
Now, lets talk about what is REALLY important to your stated needs.
Both of the pickups I talk about here have 4 wheel drive and towing packages. There are several rear end and transmission ratios available for both the F150 and F350 pickups. You want to have pulling power at highway speeds. It does not matter what brand of truck you pick, the engine/transmission/rear end ratio all WORK TOGETHER to provide you with this requirement. 2/3 of what you desire to achieve with your pickup pulling your boat has to do with components that are not being discussed in this thread yet.
The GVWR and engine in your truck does not make your truck do what you want it do ALONE. You must consider drive axle ratio and transmission ratio in COMBINATION with the engine HP in order to achieve your towing goal of less engine strain at highway speeds.
You don't NEED a 1 ton truck, or a diesel engine, to pull your Outrage 25, unless the brand you choose requires that high of GVWR and engine type to provide you with the towing capacity you require for that boat. I don't know about all the off-brands mentioned in this thread, but I know that both Ford and Chevy certainly do currently make trucks with almost 2 times the towing capacity you need, AT SPEED, in their 1/2 ton models that DO NOT HAVE DIESEL POWER. Ford even makes a V6 Turbo engine they call ecoboost that provides almost as much horsepower as that beast in my F350!
My Dad has and uses one of these F150 Ecoboost right now, and he is selling his F-250 diesel because he doesn't use it anymore since that F-150 Ecoboost came on the scene.
It is my understanding that one member here, Finnegan, uses an old Cadillac to pull his Outrage 25, (and has posted great performance reports all over the internet), using this tow vehicle on fairly LONG trips compared to your needs.
I suggest that you hook up your boat to whatever pickup/tow vehicle you consider and test drive with it attached before you buy. You can't go wrong with that method, and it eliminates the BS you will get if you try to make your decision based on other peoples preferences which seem to almost exclusively match whatever they have invested in :) Good Luck in your quest :)
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| butchdavis |
Posted on 10/04/15 - 3:03 PM
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Given your budget restriction a newer truck is probably out of the picture.
I recommend you investigate the possibility of a differential final drive gear ratio change. Possibly changing to a 4.10 or similar gear set would provide your existing truck with the added bottom end to make it a satisfactory tow vehicle. That would certainly be your least cost option.
Perhaps someone with a similar truck to yours but with a lower ratio will chime in. If this option interests you let us know your trucks final drive ratio.
Butch |
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| Silentpardner |
Posted on 10/04/15 - 3:26 PM
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I recommend you investigate the possibility of a differential final drive gear ratio change. Possibly changing to a 4.10 or similar gear set would provide your existing truck with the added bottom end to make it a satisfactory tow vehicle. That would certainly be your least cost option.
Very sensible comment. The truck you have CAN be made to accomplish your goals, as long as you are happy with the rest of the truck as it is. Lowering the drive axle ratio will increase fuel consumption.
Another thing you should look into is your truck's ECM programming. Your 1999 chevy has one, and it is programmable. There are many aftermarket programmers that are available, and there are many shops right around you that specialize in this type of engine/transmission ratio tuning for your current truck. Depending on the severity of the problem you are having, this might just be all you will need to do. That Chevy 350 is a real workhorse. :) I had a 1999 Chevy Tahoe with that engine, 280 or 285HP, I can't remember, that went 110000 miles before I got rid of it. I used it to tow the Outrage 18, and after modifying the program in the ECM, it was fine. The Fords now have a switchable programming feature that is included as "Tow/Haul" mode that only changes the programming of the ECM when engaged, and it does make a significant difference when activated while towing.
If you must have a new-to-you truck due to factors unrelated to pulling your boat, just take your boat with you when you go to look at potential replacements, hook it up to the candidate, and try it out :)
Edited by Silentpardner on 10/04/15 - 4:14 PM |
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| gchuba |
Posted on 10/05/15 - 11:20 AM
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Joe,
We have what they refer to as the "Holy Grail"of trucks in CA. The suicide door is a nice feature (if ever you can consider suicide a nice feature). The extended cab is on my 4 wheel drive 1998. No crap on the motors or additional programs to increase performance. Just a Cummings diesel you put the key in and run, and run, and run....
Bcoastal,
I am a "stock" type fellow and am aware of gear ratios. If you plan on using the truck as a daily driver you would be better off with a little more power than gearing down. You will notice the poorer mileage and the high RPM as you go the higher speeds.
My 1996 gets about 20 mph +- depending on type of driving. Towing a bit less. Around 16 mph or so my guess. The 1998 has the lower gear ratio and heavier with the 4 wheel drive and I get 14 mph whether towing or not. Does not feel the load. Get the higher geared diesel and you would be one happy camper. Do check on gearing, makes a lot of difference. Especially highway.
Depending on launching conditions, your call.The 4 wheel drive is nice but comes at a price. I am looking for an inline aftermarket overdrive for the 1998 to get better mileage when unladen.
Both my trucks are 1 tons with the heavier rear ends/etc... I heard that the 3/4 tons of the same vintage get superior fuel performance.
Garris
Edited by gchuba on 10/05/15 - 11:32 AM |
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| MG56 |
Posted on 10/05/15 - 12:52 PM
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bcoastal wrote:
I have a 1986 outrage and pull it with a 1999 chevy z71 5.3. Probably about 6500-7000. with a fully loaded with trailer. It struggles to go over 60 with a light foot. I want a truck that can pull it with no worries but not a f350. Should I go with f150 5.4, dodge 5.7, chevy 6.0 or diesel? I pull the boat 100 miles round trip about 80 times a years on a flat road. When Im not pulling the boat Im driving 20 miles round trip 180 days a year.
In a nutshell you have a 1999 Chevy 4x4 pickup that isn't working out as your tow vehicle. Look at the label on the glovebox door and see what axle option code you have. GU6 is 3.42 and GT4 is 3.73, (G80 is posi while you are looking). A Z71 should have 3.73 gears but you never know, if you have 3.42 gears no wonder you aren't happy.
Regardless you don't drive a big load with a light foot, you have to invest fuel when the momentum isn't working for you.
A lot of people say 1/2 ton trucks are fine for the load you are towing, which is true. However, more than 2/3's of your driving is hauling this large trailer. You really need to buy a 3/4 ton, there is no question.
I occasionally tow the same weight with both a 1/2 ton & 3/4 ton Suburban of the same body style as your truck, and I only tow with the 1/2 ton when I have to. The 3/4 ton is so much nicer. It has a 6.0 engine vs 5.3, 4.11 axle vs 3.73, the transmission is geared lower, it has tow/haul mode which changes the tranny shift points, has better suspension and better brakes.
The 1/2 ton gets just under 18 mpg, and the 3/4 ton gets just under 14 mpg. That's not even $500 per year for you. If I were you I would be buying a 2004-2006 GM 2500 truck w/ 4.11 gears. It will take some time to find a nice one but wait for the right one.
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| gentilebrian |
Posted on 10/05/15 - 1:10 PM
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I have a 1999 23' conquest with twins. I pull it with my 2013 F150 with a ecoboost. Not much of a difference btween the 23 and 25 I dont think. My truck is more then enough. I pull all the time at 70-75 and still have plenty left. BIG ISSUE I have is the ecoboost has a ton of power BUT is the worst gas milage wise when towing. If I had to do it again I would have gotten the V8. either way the truck is plenty for the boat and doesnt struggle in the least bit. On truck scale my boat and trailer with full tank of fuel is 7,100lbs.
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| EJO |
Posted on 10/06/15 - 5:55 AM
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Pulling/towing is a question of torque produced by the engine and gear ratio. Which engine type produce the highest torque? Diesel does. yes you can put a 5.7 Hemi or a 6 liter gasoline engine in a truck with a low final gear ratio and they'll pull anything is it efficient? NO a strong gasoline uses mor gas than a smaller diesel with the same torque.
I recommend like Garris and some others did a (just run in) diesel with >100K miles on it with the cab arrangement you'll like for daily driving.
Skipper E-J
m/v "Clumsy Cleat" a 2008 Montauk 150 |
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| butchdavis |
Posted on 10/06/15 - 7:40 AM
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The OP has a budget of under $10K. With that budget some recommendations from the group seem difficult.
Buying another truck is expensive. Add diesel to the mix and the cost zooms upward another big notch. An older Cummins diesel would be an ideal solution IF, big IF, he could find one in excellent condition. Remember, people buy Cummins diesels to work them hard so a lot of them are becoming tired. Has anyone priced a minor diesel overhaul lately? Just the cost of a set of rebuilt injectors or turbo is mind bending. Personally I would not buy an older diesel pickup without taking it to a trusted diesel shop for a complete inspection including bore scope and an oil analysis.
It also takes a long, long time for the better fuel economy of a diesel engine to pay for the added purchase and maintenance costs.
Butch |
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| gchuba |
Posted on 10/06/15 - 8:17 AM
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Butch,
My maintenance to date for my Cummings motors are one water pump, filters, oil changes (a big must for the diesels) at 5000 miles, some gaskets/o ring replacement from accessory mounts. I have 275,000 miles on one, 130,000 miles on other. Not all the miles mine. I work them but never high RPM them (try never to go above 2500). However, the truck eats up front ends. Very diligent on grease and keeping front end tight. Dropped $1700 into one truck a couple years ago. I am not familiar enough with the post mechanical diesels to pass judgement but a friend passed on a Chevy with the Duramax because injectors a little under $1000 a hole (as I was told).
Garris
edit: Not to say you should go in this direction but.....I sneezed at a red light and my foot slipped off the clutch and my truck lurched and hit a tire of a dump truck in front of me. Total damage to repair (strictly cosmetic) $5200. Nearly totaled my truck from insurance appraiser. Could have gone either way. My repairs were done and my title still clear. Not salvaged. I see salvaged titles on this truck for less money. Not a direction I would take but putting it out there. Does not take much to total these older vehicles.
Edited by gchuba on 10/06/15 - 8:31 AM |
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| MG56 |
Posted on 10/06/15 - 1:58 PM
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gentilebrian wrote:
I have a 1999 23' conquest with twins. I pull it with my 2013 F150 with a ecoboost. Not much of a difference btween the 23 and 25 I dont think. My truck is more then enough. I pull all the time at 70-75 and still have plenty left. BIG ISSUE I have is the ecoboost has a ton of power BUT is the worst gas milage wise when towing. If I had to do it again I would have gotten the V8. either way the truck is plenty for the boat and doesnt struggle in the least bit. On truck scale my boat and trailer with full tank of fuel is 7,100lbs.
7100 lbs seems light to me, what does a 25' Whaler/trailer/gear/fuel weigh? I looked up a slip when I brought a dump trailer to the recycle place with the 1/2 ton Suburban and the weight was 12000 lbs going in & 10000 lbs going out. I was thinking that was the sort of weight the OP was talking about.
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