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Hello EJO and excellent looking Montauk 150. I have been following your thread and will offer some opinions, exhaust all avenues to correct your hulls "getting on plane" issue before drilling into your transom.
I have hydraulic Bennett trim tabs on my Dauntless 15 and have as of yet to actually deploy them (and I've owned my Whaler since mid-2008). The previous owner had them installed and what a mess I discovered. I am aware that you are considering a "self-adjusting" type but, how sensitive are they when slapping against mild to choppy surf? Can the attitude of the hull be suddenly affected should a tab change or loose it's height setting? As is my case, a 15 foot hull length with barely over 5 feet of beam is extremely and uncomfortably sensitive to trim tab input.
What actually concerns me is the lack of any strong substrate within the transom area where your trim tabs need to affix to. Soon after purchasing my Dauntless I discovered numerous loose fasteners at the trim tab bracket to transom plate along with inadequate sealant. Small amount of moisture wicked for days from the various fastener locations (for both Port and Starboard) when I dismounted the tabs. Review my project album for the repair method I used due to the lack of any wood or ample fiberglass thickness in those immediate areas. It was a mission to due it properly.
My situation is a bit different since my Dauntless is slightly over-powered, there's sufficient power for the "hole-shot" but a bit more weight as well. I typically boat with 4 occupants (my wife and our 2 adult kids and soon my daughters boy friend) that will make 5 adults and he's a big guy. My Yamaha 2 stroke is mounted all the way up, cavitation plate is about 1-1/4 to 1-3/8 inch above our so-called keel. From my personal experience, my set-up is great but a jack plate could make it more interesting.
Originally I had a Solas (early model) Saturn S.S. 3-Blade 13-1/4" Dia. x 17P prop with round ears. Some sites reference these props as bow-lifting and it certainly is/was. When attempting plane it would bury the stern and point the bow to the clouds, I would have to consciously feather the throttle until the stern would rise. And yes, the drive or lower unit would be tucked all in rather no positive trim. Now I am using a new to me Power Tech S.S. 3-Blade 13" X 17P "Semi-Cleaver" prop configured for the Yamaha 90 2 stroke. This particular "Semi-Cleaver" prop is modeled off of a Yamaha OEM prop, "Semi-Cleaver" props are considered a stern-lifting prop and this one certainly is. With the 4 of us I can get on plane immediately when coming out of the hole with minimal stern drag. Staying on plane at lesser rpm has also been an added benefit that the Solas struggled with.
I replaced the OEM fiberglass Pate 15 gallon fuel tank with a Moeller plastic 18 gal which resides within my helm seat housing. I feel this tank location offers a slightly better weight distribution unlike smaller tanks at the stern regardless of their capacities. My single battery is located within the center console as well.
How is your weight distribution??? Fuel and battery location???
You can forgo a hoist or pulley system to raise your outboard EJO, if you have a healthy floor jack and you are comfortable with some wood work you can construct an appropriate bracing or cradle for your lower unit that will possibly supports either the gear case, cavitation plate or both and with 1 or 2 friends carefully raise your outboard up to a new position. If you are aware of a local prop shop they sometimes will due a "lend-lease" plan for you to test a propeller before purchasing. Just supply them with spec's of your whaler to use as a guide during a selection.
Porpoising is an interesting phenominum, My Dauntless is seriously "positive trim" sensative. Fortunately I have a Yamaha digital tach with a trim bar display and over time and use I have finally found my outboards sweet spot, 3 bars up on the display and all the throttle she wants until the moderate chop influences the ride then drop it 1 bar down.
I have shared a lenghty post with you in the hopes that you consider other factors and/or solutions to your "getting on plane" dilemma before embarking on drilling into your transom. If I had to re-do my tabs sometime in the future I would remove them completely.
If raising your outboard remember to re-seal the transom fasteners/bolts for the outboard with an appropriate sealant such as 3M's 4200. I consider the 5200 a bit to aggressive for this application but, that's my opinion.
Best of luck with your solution and "Happy Boating"...
dauntless-n-miami wrote:
Hello EJO and excellent looking Montauk 150.
Thank you Angel and see my responses below. I loved your detailed reply and thank you for taking the time to respond in such detail, you made the scale tip to what we both think is the right side.
I have been following your thread and will offer some opinions, exhaust all avenues to correct your hulls "getting on plane" issue before drilling into your transom.
My concern too hence the original question, I don't want to repair something after putting holes in and taking it off because of no performance difference.
As is my case, a 15 foot hull length with barely over 5 feet of beam is extremely and uncomfortably sensitive to trim tab input.
My new 150 is slightly wider and heavier, but you are probably right
What actually concerns me is the lack of any strong substrate within the transom area where your trim tabs need to affix to.
My concern too I don't see any substrate where I should be mounting. I have used the same fasteners you used for your tabs to hold down a large cooler we use for storage and a seat, can't be beat and the SS screws work fine with the brass.
My situation is a bit different since my Dauntless is slightly over-powered, there's sufficient power for the "hole-shot" but a bit more weight as well. I typically boat with 4 occupants (my wife and our 2 adult kids and soon my daughters boy friend) that will make 5 adults and he's a big guy. My Yamaha 2 stroke is mounted all the way up, cavitation plate is about 1-1/4 to 1-3/8 inch above our so-called keel. From my personal experience, my set-up is great but a jack plate could make it more interesting.
I love to have a little more power like a 70HP E-tec 2/S, but that's not going to happen in the near future as long as my 60HP Bigfoot purrs like a kitten as it does. It sounds like you run with the same type weight as I do quite often.
I would have to consciously feather the throttle until the stern would rise. And yes, the drive or lower unit would be tucked all in rather no positive trim.
That is my current problem with a larger load, hence I have to move a person to the bow and back to achieve quicker plane.
As I have given up on re-laying-out my transom to accommodate trim-tabs I'm now looking at going 4-bladed prop and OB re-mount
How is your weight distribution??? Fuel and battery location???
I still have the 2 single 6-1/2 gallon tanks under the RPS, battery in CC, also an quick start emergency portable battery, 11 lbs Danforth and 12 lbs river(3 blade mushroom) with 15ft of 3/8 chane and 200+ ft of rode in bow locker, than I also have a large 128qt cooler in front of the OB (where live-well would sit) as an extra seat and filled with PFD's, fenders, lines, etc. and of course the small cooler with food and drinks in front of the CC, All this adds extra weight and convenience.
You can forgo a hoist or pulley system to raise your outboard EJO, if you have a healthy floor jack and you are comfortable with some wood work you can construct an appropriate bracing or cradle for your lower unit that will possibly supports either the gear case, cavitation plate or both and with 1 or 2 friends carefully raise your outboard up to a new position.
Thank you for that [b]great tip[/] as that I can do pretty easy (might do that this weekend) I'll mount one hole higher (which I think will be slightly over 1" above the "keel").
If you are aware of a local prop shop they sometimes will due a "lend-lease" plan for you to test a propeller before purchasing. Just supply them with spec's of your whaler to use as a guide during a selection.
I'm in Michigan where they only have 4 months or so to make money on boating so there isn't a service like that here at least not in my area. I tried it with Michigan Wheel which manufacturers close by here in Grand Rapids for my twin engine 32' cruiser and believe you me those brass props were a lot more expensive than a small OB prop and therefore had a much larger margin in them if they would sell. Here it is buy, try, and re-sell at a loss, if it didn't work. Theory is theory, practice makes perfect.
Porpoising is an interesting phenomenon[/quote
Yes it is and dangerous, hence I like to get rid of it,
[quote]I have shared a lengthy post with you in the hopes that you consider other factors and/or solutions to your "getting on plane" dilemma before embarking on drilling into your transom. If I had to re-do my tabs sometime in the future I would remove them completely.
I thank you for that and yes I try the engine up on the transom and a 4-bladed prop, before drilling, mounting, getting another ladder, etc.
If raising your outboard remember to re-seal the transom fasteners/bolts for the outboard with an appropriate sealant such as 3M's 4200. I consider the 5200 a bit to aggressive for this application but, that's my opinion.
I agree. It si above the waterline so I shall use 4200 or poly-sulfide bedding compound.
We'll raise the engine first and then try the 4 bladed prop in the near future if I get a chance to do so B-4 the water gets hard here up North and post results.
Thanks again Angel and "Happy Boating" to you too...
To raise the motor, you don't need a jack. You can use the trailer and trailer jack. Even though the 60 hp is light, a second set of hands is necessary.
Block the wheels.
Lower the tongue of the trailer all the way down with the jack.
Lower motor till vertical.
Block motor skeg on ground.
Loosen bottom bolts (in slots)
Remove top bolts (Have buddy hold motor still)
Raise tongue jack till holes line up
Recaulk top holes and reinsert bolts. Caulk and tighten nuts
Caulk lower bolts and nuts, tighten
Phil just read your post this morning. I tried what you said yesterday as you can't put a floor jack under the engine. My original BW Karavan trailer is not high enough to put the engine all the way trimmed in without the skeg hitting the ground even with the tongue lowered all the way.
I did built a double "U" out of 2"x 4" to support under the skeg, straight up to the cav. plate and support also each side on the front of the cav. plate. Lowered the tongue, and used the engine trim to put motor on the ground. Loosened the nuts asked one of my two adult sons to help me keeping the engine balanced but was unsuccessful in convincing them to come home with me(20 minute drive), even after I bought Sunday breakfast for the four of us.
Needless to say it didn't happen, the motor is still mounted center holes (2 from the top or 2 from the bottom however you want to look at it) with the cavity plate even with the keel.
I'm ready now and if I have help can do it in 1/2 hour or less.
Edited by EJO on 08/25/14 - 7:13 AM
Skipper E-J
m/v "Clumsy Cleat" a 2008 Montauk 150
Hello EJO, it was my pleasure to input. I didn't consider the ride height of your trailer v.s. ground clearance to the skeg. Glad to hear Phils trailer suggestion will do the trick for your outboard height adjustment.
I'm sorry to hear that you do not have the convenience of a local prop shop that would be willing to accomodate a lend-lease option for testing. EJO keep this in mind, as you test heights a stainless prop will be needed as it nears the surface. Aluminum props typically do not fair well nor offer the needed performance when turning near the surface either by a raised outboard or by a positive trim setting.
I too considered a 4-blade prop when working through my own "getting on plane" dilemma. I received some "pros and cons" from members here on W/C when I asked for input. If you haven't yet ask for some prop advise, the topic has been discussed at significant lengths so search the site for info then post a thread. 4-Blade props can be a bit tricky and costly to select and in your case where you can't pre-test before purchasing...definitely research. Don't knock a 3-blade prop just yet EJO, I was very surprise with the Power Tech "semi-cleavers" performance.
I'm not quite sure why Phil advised against 3M's 4200, the bulk of boat riggers here in the Miami and FL. Keyes area use 5200 over the less aggressive 4200 for sealing outboard transom bolts. I am aware they are considered to be more adhesive than sealant but from my experience where applicable, the 4200 has remained flexible with little to no yellowing from exposure and with excellent water seal. In the event I should ever need to remove the 4200 I came across a product in aerosol spray form which aids in breaking down the adhesion binders in 3M's and other marine type adhesive sealants with makes removing it almost as simple as pealing it off like masking tape.
Well good luck with the prop selection and motor height project...post when you've had some test time with the Montauk 150...till then.
Can you drive the trailer wheels up on some 2x4's ?
I have a couple of 4x4's cut on a 30º angle on one end so I can drive a trailer, quad, lawnmower, etc. up on them so I get enough ground clearance to work beneath the equipment.
Will a 2x4 give you enough clearance?
If you use this method, don't forget to block the wheels so the trailer won't move.
Joe I probably have to use 4x4's and keep that in mind.
Thank you.
I'll do the raise OB first with my 3-bladed SS Vengeance prop and report back.
Ran alone for timing and speed to record so I can know the difference when lifting the engine up.
She took a good 10 sec. B-4 leveling off but she did get up to 34.7 mph on GPS running 6,000 after fine trimming.
