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Hydraulic steering help
The revenge
#1 Print Post
Posted on 02/09/14 - 10:52 PM
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Getting ready to install a system on my 1970 16'er.
I ordered the Bay star system. However, I just realized the wheel will then be mounted 4" off the dash. Then add another couple inches from the shape of the wheel and it's hanging out there 6-7".

I really prefer the wheel almost flush to the console look. Are there any kits for this? Or is my only option the rear mount helm form teleflex?

Thanks

 
Tom W Clark
#2 Print Post
Posted on 02/10/14 - 7:08 AM
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You could use a rear mount helm but that may put the steering wheel too close to the console, though that depends on the console and the dish of the steering wheel you are using.

You might want to use the back mount kit that reduces the helm protrusion by the thickness of the dash itself, but while I know they offer a back mount kit for the SeaStar helms, I'm not sure about the BayStar helms.

 
The revenge
#3 Print Post
Posted on 02/10/14 - 8:27 AM
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Thanks Tom. I've been on the phone with teleflex this morning.
They do make a back mount kit now for the Bay Star.
They emailed me a PDF on the installation of it. They just can't figure out who carries one or where to find one right now.
You can find the back mount kit for the sea star.

 
Finnegan
#4 Print Post
Posted on 02/11/14 - 2:26 PM
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Let us know if you have the original Nauset/Sakonnet mahogany console in the boat. If you do, you are headed for a costly and serious mistake.

 
The revenge
#5 Print Post
Posted on 02/11/14 - 5:23 PM
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Yes I have a new console from specialty marine.
What is the costly mistake?

 
Finnegan
#6 Print Post
Posted on 02/12/14 - 5:03 PM
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OK - I'm not familiar with the construction of the Specialty console, but know the original console well, having built one from scratch, from factory plans, back in 1971, for my Nauset. I also have a 1971 Ribside 21, and the teak console front panel in that boat is very similar to the front panel in the Nauset console.

In either console, the front panel, which holds the instrument cutouts and the steering helm are not designed for the HEAVY hydraulic helm and need considerable re-inforcement.

A couple of years ago I converted the steering on my Ribside from mechanical to Sea Star hydraulic, and it took some advance planning and consideration as to what system to use.

As you indicated a Baystar or Sea Star helm is quite large and will look terrible surface mounted on the console front panel. In addition, this offset weight, with wheel installed, will overstress the the front panel considerably without gussett re-inforcement installed from behind. I ruled out this installation option, and since Baystar does not have a rear mount cylinder option, this eliminates Baystar as an option.

I then thought about the recessed mounting option for the standard helm. But this requires a 4-1/2" hole to be cut in the console front panel, considerably weakening it to the point that failure would be inevitable. The large diameter hole leaves little wood material at the bottom of the hole. So scratch that option.

This left me with, by far, the best and most desireable option, the Rear Mount helm. These are more expensive than the standard mount, but for these consoles, are what is needed. It is still heavy, and I had to re-inforce the front panel from behind with 1" thick teak or mahognay gusset pieces, glued and screwed into both the front face and top surface, screws covered with pegs. In addition, the Teleflex rear mount cylinder requires about 1-1/2" mounting thickness, so I fabricated a 1/2" thick teak small circular plate intalled to the front panel surface, just larger than the chrome finishing bezel. A top mount oil fill fitting, supplied in the kit, also has to be installed. The finished appearance is beautiful, with the wheel in the proper position, and you can see it here: (see next photo also)

http://smg.photobucket.com/user/lgolt...7908679059

Doing all of this, and figuring it all out, was a lot of work, which is why I indicate caution to you. The console top will need to be brought into your shop for this kind of work.


Edited by Finnegan on 02/12/14 - 5:04 PM
 
The revenge
#7 Print Post
Posted on 02/12/14 - 6:30 PM
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Thanks for the reply. I've had the project on hold to heed your advice.

The front dash panel on the specialty marine console measures 30" x 7". It is 3/4" thick.
Do you have any idea if that is comparable, more or less than an original console?

There is a rear mount kit now available for the Bay Star system. It's not common knowledge for some reason. I called the tech department at Teleflex to gather some information on the Sea Star system and was informed there is also a kit for the Bay Star. The part number is HA5476, I found one available and ordered it. I should receive it Friday, although I'm uncertain as to whether I'll even use it.
This kit for the Bay Star pushes the helm 3.75" back into the dash. I've seen one picture of it, and it appears very well balanced this way. It's pushed in the dash right up to the fill cap on top. It does require a larger hole than the other systems, 4 3/8".
I really appreciate the feedback, I'm not sure what to do at this point. I think if I decide against the Bay Star I'll just go with a cable system. Maybe the Teleflex xtreme package.
I'm using the moorse control box. That requires a separate trim switch. In an attempt to keep the dash as clean as possible and avoid one more hole in the console I purchased and plan to use a Teleflex PT1000. That is a momentary switch that looks like a car turn signal on your column. It mounts to the face of the bezel and would be my trim switch. If I use a total rear mount system the PT1000 won't work.

Not really sure how to proceed at this point. If you or anyone else has the dimensions and thickness of a stock console it would be nice to hear what that is.
There is an exceptional cabinet maker near by, maybe I'll make an appointment with them and get some feedback there also.
Thanks

 
gchuba
#8 Print Post
Posted on 02/12/14 - 6:37 PM
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Check to see what parts are returnable. It might be best to get the unit in hand and determine what kit or custom manufacturing is needed to get the desired install.
gchuba

 
The revenge
#9 Print Post
Posted on 02/12/14 - 6:42 PM
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Only piece I'm missing is the Bay Star rear mount kit, it'll be here Friday. The Bay star system is staring at me along with the trim switch.
I think it's worth a run over to a local cabinet person I know. My retired father in law is also extremely good at wood working, he has an entire shop for a hobby. I'll seek his opinion also.

 
Finnegan
#10 Print Post
Posted on 02/12/14 - 9:57 PM
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I can definitely tell you that the front instrument/steering panel on both the Nauset/Sakonnet console and the Ribside 21 console were fabricated from 5/4 lumber, which is 1" actual thickness.

It sounds like Specialty may have "cut a corner" on that panel.

I would not cut out a 4-3/8" hole for any steering system, especially with the 3/4" thickness. if they have a REAR MOUNT kit for the Baystar, you should be able to use it. A RECESSED mount kit is not advised.

In the photos of my Montauk you can see that I used the Baystar system, with the Sea Star back mounting (recessed) kit to cut down on height. It works, but was not a perfect fit. I can see why Teleflex, at the time, did not recommend that Sea Star fitting for the Baystar helm.

I can say that the Baystar system works extremely well on the fiberglass console of the Montauk, and handles the in-line 6 Merc 115 I have with ease. I'm sure you be very happy with a rear mount hydraulic system on the Nauset, but the cost will be higher than expected. With that console, mechanical steering may indeed be the best option.

 
The revenge
#11 Print Post
Posted on 02/12/14 - 10:31 PM
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The kit on the way is a Bay Star recess kit. They don't offer a complete rear mount.
Did you use the Sea Star rear mount helm with the Bay Star on the motor?
I'm mulling over how to beef up the panel. It doesn't seem too difficult.
I was also looking at the Teleflex xtreme mechanical system, then noticed it's a 5 turn system.
The Bay Star is 4.5.

Anyone know if there's a big difference in performance, quality or durability between the 4.2 system and the xtreme system?

Thanks


Edited by The revenge on 02/12/14 - 10:31 PM
 
Finnegan
#12 Print Post
Posted on 02/12/14 - 10:43 PM
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Just to clarifly, the Baystar helm/cylinder system is used on my Montauk, with the exception that I rejected the plastic tubing oil lines (terrible to work with in an exposed situation like the Montauk) and purchased a separate set of Sea Star hoses.

On the Ribside 21 linked above, the entire system is Sea Star, including the rear mount helm. No Baystar components used at all.

 
The revenge
#13 Print Post
Posted on 02/12/14 - 11:00 PM
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Both boats are fantastic.
The helm on the 21 is nice to look at.

The a Bay Star on the Montauk is mounted with a kit. It still protrudes through the helm what looks like about 4". Is that the back mount kit or recess kit? One merely uses the thickness of the panel to determine how much helm you get to hide.
That boat is also fantastic. Not sure how you mounted the zlegs but I like them.

 
Finnegan
#14 Print Post
Posted on 02/13/14 - 8:41 AM
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Thank you.

The Baystar helm on the Montauk is mounted using the Sea Star back mount kit. Since the console thickness is about 1", that is the height that is saved.

On my boats I always raise the RPS and consoles, since for me they are all too low. It completely changes and improves the comfort and "feel" of the boats, with better wind protection. For the pre-1983 consoles, I raise them 6". For the 1983 and later consoles, I raise them 4". On all boats, the RPS is raised 6". I have designed the teak "block and beam" riser system I use, and fabricate them myself. I have detailed fabrication and installation drawings for all of them from which I do the work.

 
Airwolf2TV
#15 Print Post
Posted on 07/05/17 - 10:07 AM
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I know this is an old thread, but I thought I'd add some information on the matter of BayStar and SeaStar hydraulic steering for the Montauk...and probably applies to many others. This has been a nightmare trying to get the right application info from Seastar....because I WANT my hydraulic steering retrofit to match the OEM steering 100%.

I'm retrofitting a 1999 Montauk 17 with 100HP Merc....all original. That year has a 3/4-inch thick console and OEM Teleflex Safe-T steer mechanical steering. It uses an SB27150 plastic bezel which sits between the console and steering wheel hub. Projection of OEM steering shaft is just under 4 inches. The bezel is about 2-inchs deep and the wheel accounts for another 2-inches.

Just like every blog and forum warns, installation of any front-mount BayStar/SeaStar system results in your wheel sticking out at least another 2 inches. Personally, I don't find this to be an acceptable compromise. But to each his own. I'm simply sharing an alternative for those who would prefer an OEM result.

BACK-MOUNT KIT HA5476
If you dig deep enough and talk to the right people, SeaStar may recommend the HA5476 Back-Mount Kit. It is exactly what it sounds and what many people are referring to in the thread. It essentially provides a mechanical mounting for inserting the front-mount helm INTO the console face....flush to the back surface of the console. Correctly stated elsewhere...this pushes the wheel back ONE inch. This also replaces your factory plastic bezel with the "BayStar" bezel trim....and leaves two self-tapping screw holes which were used to hold the original Teleflex bezel. This also results in enlarging the 3-1/4 helm hole to 4-3/8!! That is getting awful close to not leaving any meat between the helm and the gauge/switch panels on each side. AGAIN, I find none of these factors as much of an improvement....so I ruled this option out.

ALTERNATE SOLUTION - as noted in other comments by those who share my same objective of an "OEM" hydraulic upgrade, you can use a Rear-Mount helm pump. SeaStar makes two variations of the rear-mount helm pumps - one uses a 3.5-inch shaft and the other uses a 6-inch shaft. Since the "standard" 3.5-inch shaft leaves no room for plastic bezel between wheel and console, this results in your wheel being 2-inches CLOSER to the console.....the opposite problem to the front-mount helm. I rule this out as an acceptable solution. Alternatively, SeaStar makes exactly TWO models of rear-mount pump with 6-inch shaft. The HH5279-3 and HH5281-3. And just for clarification...BOTH 6-inch helm pumps will accept either a 3/4-inch OR 1-inch wheel. The shafts are turned to 3/4 for standard wheel, and include a machined aluminum bushing for 1-inch wheel applications. So DON"T LET ANYONE tell you that these two helm units "won't work"....because they don't know what they are talking about...period!!!! Even the SeaStar documentation and technical support is wrong!!!

I went with the HH5281-3. This helm has a 1.7-cu.in. displacement, and when matched with the HC5345-3 cylinder, will yield just over 4 turns lock-to-lock. Much closer to the OEM steering of 3 turns lock-to-lock. By comparison, the "standard" BayStar and equivalent kits will give you 5.1 turns lock-to-lock. Again, my preference is stay as close to original steering characteristics as possible.

The HH5281 helm unit is a rear-mount with a 6-inch shaft. This requires NO butchering of console and only adding about 1-inch of spacer block at back of console. I fabricated my spacer block from two scraps totaling 1-1/4 inches. I drilled and used the spacer block as the drill template for re-drilling the console for new hole pattern. My Whaler console is 3/4-inch thick...so net console depth is 2 inches with spacer. That leaves nearly 4 inches of shaft projection...equal to that of OEM mechanical steer.

The rear-mount helms are provided with a round stainless bolt plate which is applied to face of console when bolting helm unit with three 5/16 bolts. This plate will interfere slightly with original Teleflex plastic bezel installation. Simple use a steel cutoff wheel to notch those screw locations of stainless plate. Now you can re-install original SB27150 bezel on front with original self-tapping screws. Install your original Whaler steering wheel....and NOBODY knows that it was upgraded, other than the addition of fluid port on top of console, which decided to locate just behind compass.

A couple other points and reminders:
1. The standard rear-mount helms have a 3.5-inch shaft....so trying to use one of those on a fiberglass console will result in steering wheel hub being flush up to console. This is problem on 1999 and similar Montauks because the console angles back out on the right side and might pinch your fingers!!

2. Some people will try to convince you that the HH5279-3 and HH5281-3 helm units won't fit your steering wheel. WRONG, WRONG, WRONG. Works with 3/4 or 1-inch wheels using provided hardware.

3. The rear-mount helms are supplied with 5/16 x 1-3/4 bolts. Accounting for spacer block, I used 2-1/2-inch bolts. Make certain to use LockTite since SeaStar supplies pre-locktited bolts.

4. I specifically used the HH5281-3 because it has a displacement of 1.7-Cu.in. instead of 1.4. This reduces lock-to-lock turns of standard BayStar/SeaStar 1.4 helms from 5 turns to about 4 turns. This is closer to the OEM 3-turn steering. I haven't operated a BayStar, but the SeaStar operation is absolutely amazing. Effortless steering at full throttle out of the hole with ZERO feedback.

I have spent many hours trying to plan a well-designed hydraulic steering upgrade for my cherished Montauk....that isn't a butcher job!! So I hope somebody else finds this info helpful and maybe avoid some of the misinformation...or at least be additional input for your particular situation.

I've posted photos of install on Dropbox link at https://www.dropbox.com/sh/8aclz73syn...2xtWa?dl=0

 
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